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Anti Christmas Acts

Started 3 years ago by HeavyMetalConservative
Latest reply from Cait

HeavyMetalConservative
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I love Christmas for multiple reasons. I love celebrating Christ's birth. It is a wonderful holiday promoting giving, peace and joy among many other things. If you don't believe, that is your right. He was a great teacher and philosopher.

But I am distressed.

First, I am very unhappy with the Atheist sign in Olympia. There is no reason it should be there and it is attacking people's faith, not just Christianity but all faiths. Christmas is a federally recognized Holiday. Their display is tasteless and they do not show respect for other opinions. They already have freedom of speech and they should be allowed to use it but not in that forum. We are not a theocracy, but western values have evolved with the help of the judeo christian ethic. Chris Gregoire should not allow it but she will.

Second. Why in the world did the woman who was given the privilege of designing a christmas ornament have to make it a Impeach Bush bauble for the nation's Christmas Tree? Again, no respect. She can make all the Impeach Bush stuff she wants but that was also in very poor taste.

Secular Progressives are much more intrusive around here than most religious denominations. Respect and equality grew out of the judeo christian ethic. I think these two acts are completely out of line.

They may have the freedom TO, but sometimes I like freedom FROM. Maybe I should say there is a time and place for everything and they should show more respect.

Thanks for letting me vent and may I say....Merry Christmas or peace to all on and near the Winter Solstice.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
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In watching the news today it was reported that the law in the state says when you allow one religious display you MUST allow other displays as well.

Secondly the bible is roughly 3,000 years old, the Quran about 1,600, humans have been around for 500,000 years. So, I think it could be argued that Athiesm existed first.

I grew up Catholic, went to church, Sunday school, was confirmed and studied Catechism like a good little boy. My parents taught me to read and find my own answers and much to my Mother's chagrin I think of myself as an Athiest...spiritual but not religious.

I love Christmas as a season, the decorations, the food, the parties, Christmas trees, Santas and that people try harder to focus on caring and giving, even if it is for a short time. I do not love the commercialism, the pushing the shoving and the greed.

Most of the things we count as Christmas were not originally Christian at all but rather Pagan. The date is near the Solstice (something the Pagan's celebrated) most agree Jesus was probably born late Summer or early Fall. The Christmas tree is also a Pagan symbol.

I just hope that we can find room for all opinions in our Country, State, cities and neighborhoods.

Merry Christmas, happy Haunakah, happy Kwanza and any other darn thing you want to celebrate!

Happy Festivus for the rest of us

Posted 3 years ago #
Kayleigh2
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"Secular Progressives are much more intrusive around here than most religious denominations."

You've got to be kidding. I've never seen an atheist or agnostic display of anything, anywhere, ever until this little tiny plaque. I think the plaque is childish and mean but I have to admit, watching the conservatives get apopletic over it is entertaining. The idea that Christians are somehow oppressed in this country is ludicrous, HMC. You have tremendous religious freedom here--which is as it should be, IMO.

Also, to say respect and equality came out of the Judeo-Christian ethic is insulting, particularly since Native American spirituality (which existed eons before Christ and is part of my heritage and spirituality) is based on respect and is, in fact, light years ahead of Christianity on that regard. Many types of Christianity are based on fear, not respect.

Posted 3 years ago #
JenV
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Speaking as a lifelong atheist, I am sick to death of Christianity being shoved down my throat on a daily basis. It's ONE sign. that's it. If I were a christian, I would be far more offended at the wholly material raping of your supposed christian holiday than at one little sign speaking up for people who rarely get a public voice. But, this is nothing new. Christians are the least tolerant group of people when it comes to other voices, opinions and religions...

IMO, none of this belongs at the Capitol, anyway.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
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Superstition belongs in your personal life, not in the public square.

The Christian Nation Myth

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Our Godless Constitution

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/allen

Posted 3 years ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

I have to believe that the state capitol belongs to all of Washington and that lawful free speech allows for the display. If it got Bill-o fired up, bonus.

As for the ornament, well, depends on what the artist's intent was I guess. If she was just looking to make a statement, she did. Personally, I think it would be an honor to have my work - and the pattern was beautiful - hang in the WH, regardless of politics. How often is that chance going to come along? What she added was a sure-fire way to be sure it wouldn't end up there. Her choice.

Posted 3 years ago #
charlabob
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Perfect holiday fare for those of us who eschew this particular form of superstition...see it before it's banned:

http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/06/06/religulous-movie-trailer/

Interesting about bill-o; he seems to have difficulty deciding which side he's on in the "made-up-by-bill-o" war on Christmas.

Posted 3 years ago #
Cait
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I think we hit it on the head here - this is the private sphere becoming public. There's really no reason for any of the religious stuff, in my opinion. But, if we are going to represent one, we must represent all and atheism gets to be included.

I agree about the holiday spirit stuff, too. I'm not religious and never have been, but I love the holidays because everyone really seems to rally together despite religion. It seems that at its root, there's something at the base that we all identify and agree with: peace on earth, good will toward men. Falalalala.

Plus the food. And Charlie Brown Christmas. And family time. :)

Posted 3 years ago #
mellaw6565
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HMC - I'll stop complaining about non-secular displays when Christians stop trying to rule this country. Those of us that are secular in our beliefs are frankly sick and tired of having Christian beleifs shoved down our throats. They don't represent me and my government should represent everyone in a secular manner, not by putting up non-secular displays that don't represent all of the people.

I say good riddance to all religious displays on public property. If you want a non-secular display - put it up at your church or your home and spare the rest of us.

Posted 3 years ago #
cruiser
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HMC,

Love your blog,that's a great little kid ya got there:)

Merry Christmas to you and yours

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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Heavymetalconservative...

i too thought the plaque at the capitol was pretty pointless... but i can understand the feeling that you need to be represented when belief systems are being represented.

i know how easy it is to dismiss all that equal opportunity stuff as PC.. but the truth is that it is just equal opportunity stuff.

christians may own the label christmas (christ mas) but only because of the domination of the christian religion in europe during the holiday season that the europeans who immigrated brought with them to America.

i never realized how oppressive the continual bombardment of christian religion is during the holidays till i had an unexpected exchange with a jewish friend about christmas cards some time ago.

Our christmas cards are never religious because i live with an athiest.. so i never thought much about it until my friend asked me please just to send the annual christmas letter which she really enjoyed but to bag the cards.

I was puzzled because i was very careful never to send her anything offensive.. and glancing at her buffet i could see that most of her friends were equally careful. Then i saw that the buffet top was full of cards celebrating a holiday that kept a significant portion of her torah as the first book of the bible but vilified jews...

You say that the first tenant of christianity is respect but that tenant in christianity was actually jewish.. the christian religion reveres those teachings enough to keep them as the first part and heart of their bible but not enough to acknowledge fully and revere where they came from.

i think that may sum up what it has been like to be a jew.. even here in America.

Now, i am not saying that Christianity is bad. I would have to deny my own personal belief system to say that.. and believe me i am not doing that.

but i do think that respect is a two way street and that it hasn't gone from christians to those of other faiths nearly as much as it has been demanded by christians from other religions.... at least in my lifetime.. in this country.

i can remember being told not to play with the little mormon girl.. or heaven forbid.. hang out with the catholics. if there were jews where i grew up i didn't know it.. certainly there was no visible synagogue. And we won't even mention the standing the indian children had in our northeast oregon town.

I can see why many christians feel persecuted by what they see as the lack of respect for their religion.. but what they see as lack of respect is actually lack of supreme dominance. it's a shock after a lifetime of that position.

I have studied most of the major religions and found that respect is actually a basic tenant in all of them..

some time we are going to have to discuss that equality thing since women aren't considered quite so equal in the christian ethic:) so equality for men... but that does leave out a significant portion of the population. and then there's that history of equality for only some men.. dependent perhaps on their color or their belief system.

The fundamentalist Christian home i grew up in was extremely bigoted.

With my left leaning ways it's a wonder that the power of the message of Christianity survived my revulsion at the acts done in the name of Christianity.. but it did:)

I think we should all appreciate the season for what it means to us because it is what we bring to the table that makes it live for us.

I won't be having sushi for christmas dinner... but i bet i will be going out for sushi for christmas dinner with my daughter, my son and his family and my husband who all love sushi. It's not what's on the table that is important.. but who sits around it.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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Mellaw6565..

Bah humbug ;~>

So what are you getting those pups for christmas? mine are so spoiled that they don't need anything but their little noses are front and center when i open anything so i suspect there is going to have to be more than one package under that tree for them.

i think i may even let them open them this year...

We are all foolish about something:))))

Posted 3 years ago #
mellaw6565
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JoB - we don't do presents for anyone, including our pets, at xmas. We share and give to our friends and families all year long - I refuse to buy into the commercialism of Xmas. We'll donate when there is a need, not just because of xmas.

It's sad that many people out there don't become altruistic until xmas and then blow it off the rest of the year. It seems very fake and two faced.

Bah humbug to overdone and useless xmas celebrations and displays. I appreciate your thoughts above - Christians just don't get how bad it is with all their xmas crap around in this country - definitely different elsewhere. The best xmas' I've ever had have been in Asia where they don't celebrate it:)

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
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They may have the freedom TO, but sometimes I like freedom FROM. Maybe I should say there is a time and place for everything and they should show more respect.

Matthew, 7:3-5.

Posted 3 years ago #
FullTilt
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"We are not a theocracy, but western values have evolved with the help of the judeo christian ethic."

Really? Like the wholesale slaughter of Natives both here and in South and Central America? Is that the same ethics that brought slaves over? Oh, and the moral high ground that burned people at the stake.

This is what having a free nation is really about. People are allowed to express different views. I know the American Taliban Church would like to see it a little different, but we have to respect each others differences.

Posted 3 years ago #
Ken
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For reference:

http://www.history.org/almanack/life/christmas/hist_anotherlook.html

Excerpt from The Colonial Williamsburg Interpreter, vol. 16, no. 4, winter 1995-96

6. Was Christmas celebrated throughout all the colonies?

No. The celebration of Christmas was outlawed in most of New England. Calvinist Puritans and Protestants abhorred the entire celebration and likened it to pagan rituals and Popish observances. In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts forbade, under the fine of five shillings per offense, the observance "of any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forebearing of labour, feasting, or any such way." The Assembly of Connecticut, in the same period, prohibited the reading of the Book of Common Prayer, the keeping of Christmas and saints days, the making of mince pies, the playing of cards, or performing on any musical instruments. These statutes remained in force until they were repealed early in the nineteenth century. In 1749, Peter Kalm noted that the Quakers completely dismissed the celebration of Christmas in Philadelphia. Kalm made another interesting observation about the Presbyterians as well. He wrote in his diary:

Christmas Day. . . .The Quakers did not regard this day any more remarkable than other days. Stores were open, and anyone might sell or purchase what he wanted. . . .There was no more baking of bread for the Christmas festival than for other days; and no Christmas porridge on Christmas Eve! One did not seem to know what it meant to wish anyone a merry Christmas. . . .first the Presbyterians did not care much for celebrating Christmas, but when they saw most of their members going to the English church on that day, they also started to have services.

Christmas Day in 1775 must have been a great disappointment for the Presbyterian missionary, Philip Fithian. A year earlier he had experienced the finest of Virginia Christmases the residence of Robert Carter, Nomini Hall. But in 1775, Fithian toiled as a missionary in the western counties of Virginia among the Scotch and Scotch-Irish Presbyterians. The following is part of his diary entry for December 25:

Christmas Morning--Not A Gun is heard--Not a Shout--No company or Cabal assembled--To Day is like other Days every Way calm & temperate-- People go about their daily Business with the same Readiness, & apply themselves to it with the same Industry.

Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, and Moravians celebrated the traditional Christmas season with both religious and secular observances. These celebrations in eighteenth- century America were observed by the aforementioned communities in cities such as New York and Philadelphia, in the Middle Atlantic colonies of New York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland, and in the South.

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
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The history of the celebration of Christmas in the U.S. is pretty interesting. I usually refer people to Stephen Nissenbaum's The Battle for Christmas. (The author is a professor emeritus of history at the University of Massachusetts.) Among other things, he points out that a lot of the things we think of as traditional ways of celebrating Christmas in this country aren't even as old as the United States. If one wanted to get REALLY traditional in one's Christmas celebrations, the results would look something like a combination of Halloween and New Year's Eve.

Considering the origins of the Christmas holiday, particularly its timing and some of its decor, there's really not a whole lot of room to complain about what other religions (or those specifically and particularly denying same) choose to do at this time of year.

I'll grant that the sign is pretty antagonistic and maybe not a good way to get allies. On the other hand, this part of the U.S. is famous for its lack of religiosity. One of the faculty at my university even wrote a book about it. So you're more likely to find displays pertaining to non-Christian religions and to atheism here than elsewhere, I think.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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Ok guys..

i know you're right... and we work hard to take the crass commercialism out of christmas in our house...

but i do love many of the traditions. which is why there will be something for everyone in my house under the tree christmas morning...

and why my house will have not one but two small trees ...artificial, after all i have little old lady creds to defened:) and lights... and christmas goodies to fatten us all of the dark days of january.

and why i try to piggyback on the sentiment of the season to get people to give at christmas even if they don't give any other time of the year.

Those who do give year round will continue to do so.. but the bonus from christmas giving is not one i would deny our local charities.

Yes, the way we all celebrate the season could be improved.. a lot. But there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Maybe i will make a video of the dogs tearing open their presents:) yes.. they would do the same any time of year.. but it is soooo cute when the packages are wrapped in christmas paper:)

Posted 3 years ago #
HeavyMetalConservative
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Heh heh. I knew I would get you people going on that one. I will also have fun debating many of your points.

Let me make something very clear. I do not care if you are religious or not. You choose your own path. I will be answering many of you in time.

Cruiser, thanks for the shout out. He is an awesome kid. We are so blessed. He is so much fun. He wears us out too. Dasvydania.

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
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Oh, JoB, I absolutely agree! We had many lovely traditions when I was growing up, and my husband and I are working on creating new ones.

My point was more than an appeal to tradition as a criticism of what other people do has a way of backfiring, particularly in a country and culture as diverse as ours.

Posted 3 years ago #
JenV
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What I am getting from HMC is that free speech is A-OK....as long as you're with the majority. Don't make waves. Let's all go along to get along.

*gag*

No religious symbols should be allowed in government. At all. But they are...and "god bless america" and "one nation under god" and "in god we trust" is all over the damn place. So how is that not Christians shoving their religion down our collective throats? I am a Discordian - do you see me trying to throw a golden apple at you? I am also a Subgenius - do you see me trying to hold a devival down at the Capitol?

Keep your religion to yourself at all times - your personal relationship with your god is your business, and mine is mine. It is highly offensive to me that HMC stated that the atheists were "attacking faiths" In my opinion any public display of religion attacks anyone who believes differently - it tells them "you're wrong"...but then, the Christians were responsible for the crusades....

Posted 3 years ago #
ellenater
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This is a great thread!

I am LMAO because I was an atheist for years and am now going Catholic. Which is hilarious. I have an entirely new perspective now. All sides. So for what it's worth...

Not all Christians suck but a lot do. IMO, atheists get no respect and are often targeted. In my life, MOST of the people i've met who are atheists are kinder, gentler, more moral, and more intelligent than their religious counterparts. They are also often more creative. Christianity is used for baaaaad so often, it makes me sick. So, there's that.

BUT, I think there can be real beauty in religion. It's not nearly as black and white as I had previously thought. I think the black and white is what gets us into trouble!

I love free speech and I love that the atheist symbol is up.

Lastly, if I were the ornament designer, I would have done the exact same thing. Bush should be impeached a million times over and it's only because we as a country rested on our laurels that he got away with everything in the first place. There is no "right time" to tell the unwanted truth.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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i applaud anyone willing to point out that the emperor has no clothes..

as for appropriateness... one has to ask how appropriate a card depicting bringing a christmas tree into the white house is for jewish recipients...

you gotta love rachel maddow.

that said.. i still think it a true miracle that i ended up a christian considering where i started and the journey that ultimately brought me here :)

i passed through a lot of interesting places on the way and met a lot of wonderful caring people who don't share my choices when it comes to religion.

i am looking forward to meeting many many more.

Posted 3 years ago #
Cait
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Speaking of pro-Christmas shenanigans, does anyone have any word on when the "Christmas Ships" will be appearing on Alki? I may not always love Christmas but gosh darn, I will stand out in the cold with my Tully's watchin' Santa Claus on his Harley ANY day. :)

That being said, Christmas is overly commercial and it is sad - very sad given the WalMart crap this year (basically everything I hate about Walmart and greed is summed up right there in that incident). But I refuse to lose my faith in Christmas - whatever gets people in the same room feeling the love for a day is ok in my book... as god-awfully morally corrupt as my wording just sounded. :)

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
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December 13, 2008 departing Pier 55 at 8:00 pm and arriving at Lowman Beach from 8:50 - 9:10 and Alki Beach from 9:40 - 10:00 pm featuring the Canterbury Belles Choir.

I had already looked it up for my Grandmother.

Posted 3 years ago #
ellenater
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Santa on a Harley?!!! Put some nice Bailey's in that Tully's and I'm there!

West Seattle...just when I thought it couldn't get any better.

Posted 3 years ago #
Cait
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Ellenater - you know I'm your spiked Tully's hookup. Gotta love airplane bottles.

Posted 3 years ago #
HeavyMetalConservative
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Good Evening fellow citizens. I love your answers. Please, please let me tell you that I do not want to hurt anyone. I did this for robust and passionate debate. I do not go to church, these days due to working on Sundays (OK and a love for watching the Green Bay Packers play) but I consider myself a Christian.

Conversely I have had my eyes opened the past few years by a friend of mine. Lets just say she and John Edward have much in common. Plus when our indoor cat escapes, she always finds him immediately with the help of her spirit guides. I find it fascinating. I am not supposed to believe in false prophets etc, but whether the powers are God given or natural, they are interesting.

How do you break a philistine's finger?

Hit them in the nose.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I had heard of the state law saying that all religions could put up a symbol before I posted. I clearly believe in everyone's freedom of speech guaranteed by our federal and state constitution, but that was not conveyed in my message. I will try to make my point more clearly.

When I said "There is no reason it should be there and it is attacking people's faith, not just Christianity but all faiths."
I was coming from a point of view that Atheism is not a religion but a personal belief (with many different layers and shared by about 15% of the US population) that is slightly to absolutely against supernatural beings and religions. Not a religion, but in fact an anti-religion. And the groups spokesmen backs me up with a quote. "It's not a religious display, it is an attack on religion,” the President of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, Dan Barker said. From a KGW Report.

When Grant signed the bill in 1870, Christmas became a federal holiday. Washington State's Constitution addresses what is allowed for Religions. I believe Gregoire is viewing it only as a freedom of speech or constitutional issue. She said... “Once government admits one religious display or viewpoint onto public property, it may not discriminate against the content of other displays, including the viewpoints of non-believers."

I say that since it is not a religion it should not be near the other religious symbols.

If Atheists want their own holiday, then go for it, but would that not give validity to religion? Mmmm maybe not.

I must admit reading about the different points in Atheism is fascinating and all peoples should know about it and learn. I am a lay person in understanding that point of view.

Additionally, the State of Washington Constitution says a little something about faith in the preamble.

We, the people of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this constitution. IMO they recognized the moral need of our creator in addition to secular laws of humanity and this state.

On a lighter note, if Skeletor were the Supreme Ruler, I would admit to being very surprised!!!

Here is the State's Constitutional Article:

SECTION 11 RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Absolute freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment, belief and worship, shall be guaranteed to every individual, and no one shall be molested or disturbed in person or property on account of religion; but the liberty of conscience hereby secured shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise or instruction, or the support of any religious establishment: PROVIDED, HOWEVER, That this article shall not be so construed as to forbid the employment by the state of a chaplain for such of the state custodial, correctional, and mental institutions, or by a county's or public hospital district's hospital, health care facility, or hospice, as in the discretion of the legislature may seem justified. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror, in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned in any court of justice touching his religious belief to affect the weight of his testimony. [AMENDMENT 88, 1993 House Joint Resolution No. 4200, p 3062. Approved November 2, 1993.]

As a Christian I must defend my faith otherwise I would not be a Christian. I do expect others to defend their views or faiths AND that they should ALL be respected by others whether you agree or disagree. If I missed any other Govermental Amendments or Articles, please let me know.

I will be addressing other things said in this string later. I have to read the links you sent.

Have a nice evening and a great day. HMC

Posted 3 years ago #
HeavyMetalConservative
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PS ... My wife wanted me to re-iterate that she is a proud liberal. She's English you see. Loves the Labour Party and she would have voted for Obama if she was allowed to vote.

Additionally, whatever YOU say, she agrees with you. I love her very much (despite this character flaw). She says our kitties are Democats. My Bassett Hound is a Democrat too, she is always looking for a free handout. JUST KIDDING!!!!!!

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
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I would argue that religion is just a belief as well, organized but still just a belief.

While I consider myself an Athiest, I do believe in spirituality. That the world has forces both positive and negative, that if I do good things good things come to me. I continually see this being proved over and over and over again.

As humans we struggle to make sense of things we do not understand. Humans thousands of years ago were no different, God is an easy way to explain a lot of things. What is unfortunate is that some men wanted power and saw the opportunity to use God as a way of controling the masses. If you do not behave, you will go to HELL!

Why have humans been on the Earth for approximately 500,000 years but religion only about 3,000? That question still baffles me.

Posted 3 years ago #
Kayleigh2
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HMC, I don't see a need for you to defend the Christian faith. This isn't Tibet and the Chinese aren't tearing down churches. This is where the authoritarian aggression stuff bothers me.

Do you seriously think a small plaque is a threat to all Christianity? Really?

The governor's office is getting 200 calls an hour from the freeper set who apparently has nothing better to do. And somebody *else* wants to put up *another* sign.

We are a nation of 5-year-olds.

Posted 3 years ago #
Magpie
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What everyone has made clear here is that we all have differing opinions. That part is great. Will this question ever be answered, probably not. I love the pageant of the holidays, but do agree there is too much commercialism. As far as religion goes, that's a completely personal choice, however, nothing more bothersome to me when someone tries to sway me as my beliefs are my own (my husband and I happen to have vast differing beliefs). Whether it be religion or politics, there has been a lot of bad things gone on in the world in its name.

That said, action speaks loudern than words and what I love about this blog is all of the differences of opinions, but when it comes down to it, so many of you band together for fundraisers, etc in the community and do a lot of good in spite of your obvious differences in viewpoint.

That said, my favorite card that I recieved last Christmas had George Bush in the manger instead of the baby Jesus and the caption read "and come let us abhor him" I saved it for posterity.

Posted 3 years ago #
Cait
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LOL! HMC... I love it.

And Magpie - you have some creative friends. :)

Posted 3 years ago #
WSMom
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Magpie: Thank you for the morning chuckle, I nearly choked on my latte! Oh come let us abhor him...I wish I were creative like that!!

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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HMC..

that plaque doesn't threaten religion.. if anything it spurs people to think and to ask questions.

like Magpie, i too hate anyone telling me what to believe. and that is as true of an atheist plaque as of a christian or jewish or muslim or .... one.

living your faith with joy and being willing to listen even when those who want to know your about your faith ask questions is so much more effective at helping people to find their own way to God than any defense or laying out of scripture could be. After all, religion is a matter of the heart.. not the head.

I question how much voices raised in outrage and anger defend any faith... as anger is the antithesis of most religions i have studied..

in spite of those who would use religion as a both a prison and a club... if it speaks to your heart, it is neither.

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

Zenguy says:

Why have humans been on the Earth for approximately 500,000 years but religion only about 3,000? That question still baffles me.

That's debatable. It really depends on how you're defining religion, but even if you're just looking at the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism is something like a thousand years older than that. Hinduism and its precursors are documented to be even older. And those are just religions that are still around and have written documentation.

And that's the thing--unless you're defining religion as something with written documentation, in which case there's no way to date it prior to the invention of writing, which imposes limitations of its own.

Burial rituals are frequently taken as evidence of religious belief, and if you do that, then religion is much, much older than 3000 years—and Homo Sapiens isn't the only species to have it.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
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My point I guess is if God wanted us to follow specific laws, you would think they would have been laid out from the dawn of time for ALL to see, not just some people in one area.

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
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Inquisitive answer: I'm not sure how that relates to your previous point, unless you're clarifying how you define religion.

Smartass answer: Sure, but where's the fun in that?

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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i vote for the smartass answer:)

second smartass... or thoughtful... answer depending on how you take it...

how do we know that god didn't? After all, the survival oral history would depend largely upon the belief systems of those who chose what to.. and not to document.

after all.. we now know that the survival of written history depended largely upon the belief systems of those who chose what to keep.. and on the continual rewrite of historical events to fit current perspective.

Carl Rove is busy in the White House right now trying to do what the Roman Catholic church.. and the the church of england.. and then.. did repeatedly... rewriting history to tell the story you want reflected.

What if the garden of eden story is just an allegory for a people who once knew the way and then allowed temptations to lead them from their path?

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
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I am NOT religious - at all. That being said, I don't understand why the plaque has to SAY something. The nativity scene doesn't say anything (unless, I guess, if you are Christian, perhaps it speaks to you).

The fact that it seems to degrade all religious beliefs makes it a poor choice as a display, JMO. I think atheists would have a far stronger leg to stand on had it simply been a symbol.

I think a point can be made without attacking an opposing point.

Posted 3 years ago #
WesCAddle
Member Profile

NW,
I agree, the plaque is a bit harsh and they could have presented their case in a better light if they had properly wordsmithed it.

There is a big difference between displaying a Christmas tree or Menorah versus a sign that proclaims that people who follow ANY religion are basically idiots following myths and superstitions. It makes them look extremely bitter.

Let's let people believe what they want, and if you really feel that "In God We Trust" on a nickle is equivalent to "cramming religion down your throat" you need to get out and realize there are bigger fish to fry on this rock we call earth.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
Member Profile

Agreed, I wish they would have focused on why they think Athiesm works for some and leave others to believe as they wish.

Posted 3 years ago #
datamuse
Member Profile

I think so, too, but I suspect that wouldn't have gotten people as riled.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
Member Profile

There is no such thing as bad publicity.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

"if you really feel that "In God We Trust" on a nickle is equivalent to "cramming religion down your throat" you need to get out and realize there are bigger fish to fry"

There most certainly may be bigger problems to address, but I also don't think dismissing essentially what amounts to a state sanctioned religious motto, to represent a secular government, is appropriate.

It is establishing a tone for our entire financial infrastructure, whether it be personal or business transactions. Something I doubt the christian god would even endorse. Wasn't it jesus after all, who was most upset with the money changers?

Our currency influences every aspect of our lives. Whether it be giving tithes to our church or purchasing goods and services. That motto implies we do all things in gods honor. Perhaps that is true and fitting for your life, but does not reflect mine or a system that I feel should be neutral.

I imagine most christians would not be thrilled to live under the umbrella of in wicca we believe. Or brahmaa, allah, or satan for that matter. In that light can you not see how this could be offensive? You may not give it a second thought, or care, but it does have an influence.

Posted 3 years ago #
mellaw6565
Member Profile

Most people don't realize that the words "under God" in the Pledge were added by moral conservatives in the 1950's - our Grandparents and perhaps parents said it differently when they were children but yet sometimes they are the first to complain when we want to take it out and restore the original Pledge.

Makes it hard for me to pledge secularly to my country when I have to include God in it.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

WesCAddle....

i agree that an anti-religion statement doesn't make much of a holiday decoration... but i am not sure what the atheist holiday symbol would be. LOL... I don't think a true atheist even believes in Santa Claus.

i suppose that is the point..

datamuse...

they could have as easily talked about celebrating family during the season in spite of the fact that there is no god...

the reception to their message would still have been as negative by those on the righteous religion bandwagon.. but more palatable to those of more moderate inclination.

...

As for the in God we Trust on our money... God is actually a pretty generic term. it means many different things to many different people.

and these days it looks like we would do better to trust in whatever god we trust than trust in our government when it comes to our pocketbooks:)

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

mellaw6565..

i found i can't say those words in the pledge... so i don't. i bow my head silently during them.

And i am a christian.

it's the assumption built into the statement ...one nation under god.. that we are talking about only one god... that this nation is a theocracy.

this is considered the promised land by many because of the religious freedom embedded in our constitution.

When those words were added to our pledge they had little to do with religion and more to do with patriotism and the battle against communists... who were considered godless people.

It was code for "I am not a communist"...

It has evolved to become something different.. but still a code for patriotism.. God and country!

I don't recognize the god that those on the religious right keep quoting... and supposedly we share the same god.

Religion is a private matter in our constitution.. it should remain one in our communities... with freedom to practice as ingrained as the freedom from practice.

I just spent a couple of hours out in the community and i am not sure that any religious symbol gets top billing during the holidays... no matter how incensed some people are that religious symbols are displayed at all..

even santa has been challenged by a plethora of cartoon animals and snowmen and yes.. even the grinch.

if there is one graphic that most symbolizes christmas in our society these days.. it is santa's hat... which says little about anything except that you are trying to embrace generosity during the holidays...

i can live with that.

Posted 3 years ago #
HeavyMetalConservative
Member Profile

Hey Zenguy, I really like your posts.
About 500,000 years of humanity....

I will attempt to show you why secular and limited government have roots in Christianity. I am not asking anyone to convert, etc.

Before the written word there is not a lot of evidence to actually point to. The closer we get to our time we see more evidence of polytheistic and to a lesser degree monotheistic writings, drawings etc. I believe Atheism has always been around.

Since you were raised a catholic but now aim towards a karmic spirituality, could not our ancestors have had some spiritual feelings back in time? I too believe in Karma and balance.

Now, I must say that either Atheism is right, Religion is right or neither is right, but the two cannot be correct together. We can however live together and should.

Christianity differs from most religions in a variety of ways. Historically, there was that radical Jew carpenter who proposed a very strange idea. He said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caeser's, and to god that which is God's. In an age of mostly polytheism this was quite a statement for the seperation of church and state. Even the Jewish tribe's monotheism was about tribe and not necessarily the individual. Christianity evolved to include the individual. This train of thought is expressed thankfully in our constitution. What I mean is there is not a state religion and people can worship or not worship as they choose.

The Romans did not feel threatened by the Jewish faith and basically accepted it into their own pantheon. Christianity on the other hand claimed the one God for themselves and the whole world. For that they were persecuted for the first few hundred years by the Romans and at other times up through modern times.

Islam is a monotheistic religion too. It can be used by muslims to justify a theocracy. Sharia law does not fly in the West. Someday it may but not now. Christianity is different. As we are on earth we citizens who have duties to live among each other and do so within secular society. We worship in those houses of worship or privately. Government cannot infringe upon our faith or a nonfaith. A good example is Christianity or Islam in China. Unless they kill everyone, they cannot stop its growth.

This religious sanctuary of thought or conscious is what helps the idea of limited government. The ruler or governor has only so much power of the people and can only go so far. Through the birth of Christianity the church and governments finally figured out there were limits to their authority. Even the horrible Spanish inquisition did not cross over to judge and sentence the common thief, nor did the local law sentence the heretic.

We have Christianity to thank for allowing people the freedoms that we have today. Forming a person's independence has helped to shape our country. That is not to say it was a smooth road.

Jesus also said "My kingdom is not of this world" Gods domain is not the earth but in the heavens (or maybe somewhere in the Andromeda galaxy??? - just kidding)

For a christian, we feel God rules over the whole universe BUT each country has its own laws and culture. My God's domain is the church and in individual who embrace HIM (or Her, It). Outside of the church is the secular world. Christianity itself brought about the idea of secularism.

Is this so out of line with your view of personal space and personal choice? Since the Christian ethic IMO helped form the basis of our country should we not recognize this?

Now, for those of you who do not want to say Merry Christmas i want you to know that it is OK. But you must also know that Happy Holidays gets it roots from "Holy Day - meaning religious festival or day of recreation.

There are many elements within churches which do try power grabs. The 1st Amendment was needed due to some intolerance by the various religious groups. Lets applaud the founding fathers for their foresight.

So, Live Long and Prosper my friends.

Posted 3 years ago #
JenV
Member Profile

I will say Merry Christmas until the cows come home, that doesn't make fairy tales real.

Just because you're a Christian, and in the majority - doesn't mean your 1st amendment rights trump mine as an atheist. I am glad the sign went up, and I am even happier it got Bill O'Reilly's girly panties in a bunch.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and Happy Festivus for the rest of us. Now lets have some tests of feats of strength!

Posted 3 years ago #

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