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1. Diane
   Member Profile

   

   I went to 'green' event tonight where they showed a fabulous film "Bag It", and a panel of activists announced a new proposal to ban plastic bags statewide; what do you think?

   Posted 8 months ago #         

2. kootchman
   Member Profile

   I think we already voted on it. If inspired not to use plastic... then don't. I like em'... I modified behavior a bit by reuse... I carry my stash to the grocery store. I think Americans in general are getting fed up with others who are so gosh darn good intentioned. Make the case, persuade, educate...then make your personal choices.. but this impulse to impose fringe agendas on others... by bans.. just rankles folks.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

3. JoB
   Member Profile

   i think it's a wonderful idea.
   forget the bag fee
   ban the bags.

   that island of plastic in the Pacific gets bigger all of the time...

   if people can't act like grown-ups
   then you have to treat them like children

   Posted 8 months ago #         

4. anonyme
   Member Profile

   Ban them. The only reason the bag law didn't pass was that the plastics industry launched a massive and misleading ad campaign against it.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

5. metrognome
   Member Profile

   "fringe agenda" ... coming from you, kootch, that's uh .... refreshing. There are lots of 'unfringe' reasons for banning them or at least severely limiting their use. No one but the petroleum industry or the plastic bag industry will be negatively impacted by a ban. BTW, we (meaning Seattle) didn't vote down banning them, 'we' voted down charging for them. Several other WA cities have banned them and the apocolypse hasn't happened. Although, maybe that's the reason for the unseasonably warm weather ... I'll call Michelle and ask.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

6. datamuse
   Member Profile

   

   We've already pretty much stopped using plastic bags at my house so it wouldn't make much difference to us either way. Those giant swag bags I get at library conferences are great for groceries; plus, now that we mostly ride our bikes to the store, often we just use the panniers.

   I'm all in favor of education and choice, but in my experience (and call me a cynic for this if you like) people are much more likely to make good choices if the bad ones are less convenient. Otherwise, we just say "Yeah, I should get around to eating healthier/driving less/quitting smoking/not using plastic" but rarely actually do it. This is just human nature and you can't really change it on a large scale.

   And that's the thing. Once you do educate yourself about this stuff, it's hard not to reach the conclusion that if you agree that there's a problem, it will take systematic, not individual, solutions to solve it.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

7. funkietoo
   Member Profile

   Ban them. Period.

   People were against laws requiring seat belt use.
   People were against laws regarding helmets when riding bicycles, motorcycles, etc.
   People were against requiring drivers to carry car insurance.

   Ban plastic bags...people will get use to it and in many cases, even learn to agree with it.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

8. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   Don't get me wrong...I shop at the new Safeway, as they are across the street from me. But...one of the things that I have noticed is that they no longer give you a credit for bringing your own bags. And what do they automatically use, if you don't ask for paper? Plastic bags, of course. I still take my own, certainly. I just think that if you don't stop people from using them, that it will just keep going on and on.

   I'd also like to see Safeway put a handle on their paper bags. Other stores do it. When you are walking to the store, and have forgotten your own bags, it would make it so you don't have to ask for plastic on the outside of the bag in order to carry it home. I walk with a cane in one hand, only have one hand free for the bag.

   Kman..you do the right thing, but you give too much credit to others to expect them to, too.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

9. jwd
   Member Profile

   The fee that Seattle voters voted down was for any disposable bag, including paper, was a hefty 20 cents per bag, and was pretty confusing as to which stores it applied to. At the time, the comment I heard most often was to just go ahead and ban plastic bags.

   Posted 8 months ago #         

10. kootchman
    Member Profile

    First... plastic bag have very cheap, high volatility plasticizers..some even use palm kernel oil. they degrade faster in landfills than paper... they consume less volume than paper... now .. we could tinker a bit more ya know... one of my principals now ships in water soluble plastics... with a starch component... y'know the breath mint strips ya put on your tongue? Poof... they work that fast. Or, they can be modified to last a bit longer.. they can be modified to be bacteria susceptible....however... that sorta defeats carbon sequestration.. releasing methane and CO2... you can make plastic reactive to deterioration from chloride ions.. (sea water)... here we go... how many government forces we gonna deploy... to enforce this "ban"...? Hey ... ask Waste Management guys how horrid their job is going to be... rotten foods, baby diapers, etc.. at least plastics tied at the neck contain some of the smell... ever considered how sweet the nectar of your alleys will be? Phew!!! Can't wait to be stuck behind a WM truck in July in heavy traffic... double bagging rotting trash is a great thing! You cat piss disposers are a particular treat to refuse haulers. Chill out with the "government" will solve everything .. most of my grocery plastic bags if not reused..go to double wrap "rot" garbage. Ode d' Salmon Head is not a neighbor friendly thing... last thing.. Those bags keep a lot of a--holes from chucking coffee cups, and car trash out the window... some of them. When I am in my road warrior mode.. I collect trash until I get to a gas station or rest stop to neatly dispose of it...

    Posted 8 months ago #         

11. FullTilt
    Member Profile

    

    Plastics in general are not considered biodegradable due to their molecular stability. Plastics do not easily break down into simpler components.

    A plastic bag will break down into smaller pieces of plastic, but that is not the same as biodegrading

    On a sailing trip from Hawaii to Seattle, I say the giant pacific garbage dump, and thousands of shards of plastic on the way. Sure the government can not solve all our problems, but industry, left to its own accords, are always going to go for the lowest cost. If the government, ie we the people, do not make disposal of their waste part of the cost, biodegradable bags will never be the norm.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

12. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Virtually every plastic is hydrocarbon based. How the polymeric bonda are made, heat, chemical catlalyzing... is a cost/durability choice. Any organic compound can be reduced to it's simpler elemental forms..some as simply as UV exposure... even diamonds can be heated and burned to elemental form. There are many bacterium that can do the job on plastics ... they certainly can be made very susceptible biodegradable agents. But... the part of the equation that greenies miss... is every biodegradation involves a release of green house gases.. including cotton, and paper. Recyclability, the use of the same carbon over and over and over again... is the ONLY way to reduce CO2 loads in a consumer economy. If we can't sequester it....the best option is to not create more of it. That is the endless possibility of plastics.. a knee jerk ban is too simple...hence its appeal. The greatest threat of CO2 emissions?... biodegrading permafrost.. the loss of sequestration reserves. Carbon bonds to quote Mary Poppins....are like promises... "easily made, easily broken"... (when so chemcially engineered)

    Posted 8 months ago #         

13. GenHillOne
    Member Profile

    Diane, did they address a plan for ALL plastic bags? One of the rubs for me previously was that it didn't include produce bags, drugstores, department stores, etc.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

14. singularname
    Member Profile

    Diane ... Sitting here in my efficiency-bulb-lighted bedroom, and somewhat pissed about it, because the din is that of the hotels in Communist-era Eastern Europe, and that depresses me, as I NEED bright light to be happy, I think it's ridiculous.

    I'm a prolific plastic bag user ... I use them for EVERYTHING, each one as many times as I can, by design. I have it down--haven't purchased a box of any type of bags in probably 20 years. Don't use too many, because I'm not a big shopper and about 70% of my food comes from a scruffy little garden in my backyard, organic, year-round. I also drive a gas-guzzler, which I need for frequent hauling. I fly more than the average person. And I have somewhere between 8 and 10 thousand books, because it is a life-long pleasure of mine to *feel* and "see" The Book. I do have a terrible weakness for the convenience of paper towels. I also use toilet paper, and not the recycled kind. I found the "sponge" to not suit my needs as well as the "tampon." All of these needs or pleasures of mine make my life good and in an order I want it.

    Alternatively, I never buy flowers, an industry that is tragically destroying the environment of a large swath in Africa, at least. I don't bathe but for every two or three days, unless of course I need to. I have about 14 forks spoons knives total, maybe 20 plates bowls cups glasses, all given to me by my family roughly 35 years ago--my pots and pans are the set my mom bought in 1959 in her parents' living room before she was married. Looking over into my closet now--maybe 30 items of clothing tops, including shoe pairs, at least have of which were second-hand by the time I got them. Zero small electric appliances in my kitchen with the exception of one, an espresso machine, bought in 1975--no microwave. I use "the Cloud" for the most part and my music and movies come from the ether. I did a 10-year stint here in Seattle with no heat source for my house. Rode the bus for about 10 years until that system wouldn't work for a single parent. I don't use straws. Never bought a paper plate, a plastic fork, a styrofoam cup.

    Let "them" use alternatives to plastic bags while "we" use alternatives of our own choosing.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

15. Diane
    Member Profile

    

    thanks for all the great comments; I will contact the Seattle Council-member who was part of the panel, to suggest he read what you all have to say, which I think is fairly representative of Seattle opinions, all over the place
    ~
    GenHillOne; there were not specifics given, but there was a rep from Bellingham, sharing how they got a ban passed, and they were all trying to get everyone in the room to sign petitions (I did not sign)

    Posted 8 months ago #         

16. maplesyrup
    Member Profile

    

    Despite the way some people more or less use the bags responsibly, those bags still end up in sewers, waterways, and landfills. And that's because there are just as many irresponsible people who don't use them wisely.

    And you have to consider the way the grocery stores use them. You can fit 5 or 6 plastic bags worth of groceries into 2 paper bags. Yet they default to plastic because it costs them less.

    I still like the fee because it gives consumers a choice, but banning plastic bags at grocery stores would be second best, I suppose.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

17. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I now pay twice as much for my bright and shiny incandescents... but buy them I will. I like the quality of the light. Go ahead ban the bags... there is great profit in things demanded that are banned...and it gives the unemployed a good foundation for an underground economy. Paper or plastic... if ya want paper .. ask for it... personal choices. Show me a grocery store in WS where you don't have a choice? BTY.. since neither paper or plastic decomposes in landfills... it is then weight and mass that counts... and paper weighs more and consumes more space.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

18. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootchman...

    have you seen the plastic bags floating in the sound? ride a ferry and you will.

    have you seen them blowing in the wind? go down the street and you will.

    there will still be plenty of plastic bags available if we ban those plastic shopping bags...
    but since we directly pay for them.. we are less likely to let them blow in the wind...

    Posted 8 months ago #         

19. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I have, and it is detestable..but a ban is an overreaction to a problem with solutions.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

20. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    and, of course, you, being all knowing, have just the answer to the problem, don't you?

    Posted 8 months ago #         

21. kootchman
    Member Profile

    well jan... I am not all knowing.. but on this subject, yes... I have extensive industry knowledge. I don't like to impose the burdens of regulation on others when there are other options. Want some research links? Some alternate product formulation articles? .... it is knee jerk to grab for a government solution to every problem. It''s like.. geez, I will just give up on being a collective citizen, building a consensus, as long as I have a like minded nanny government... I can impose my will... through surrogates....before we run to government to solve every single little thing that vexes us... some actual knowing is not a bad thing. Unless you have an inside track on a new city position.... plastic bag super duper coordinator why not do a little research?

    Posted 8 months ago #         

22. kootchman
    Member Profile

    How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world! That has such people in it!

    AH

    Posted 8 months ago #         

23. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Kool things for plastic bag use..

    dog poop - enhances public health.. parasite control
    Vine ties - great for organic garden vine ties, tomatoes, grapes etc.
    cleaner streets - less auto trash
    greener - multiple uses, less energy to produce than paper
    Industrial fuel - Did you know right in WS two industrial plants burn used tires? Never smell em do ya? Scrubbers.
    puking - when yer friends get too drunk.. instead of puking in your car... plastic bags!
    sucking chest wounds or tourniquets
    quick oral sex dam ... see drunk and puking..

    Ohhh the list is endless

    Posted 8 months ago #         

24. velo_nut
    Member Profile

    

    If the city takes away my plastic bags I will stop picking up my dog's dog poop.

    Touche!

    Posted 8 months ago #         

25. oddreality
    Member Profile

    Ditto singularname and velo-nut.Every plastic bag I get gets used at least one more time. Between cat littler and dog poop and adult diapers for my mom I use lots. I'd have to buy them so I would still use just as many.Maybe more.They do make biodegradable bags.I just got a notice from the city about them for yard waste. If they are good enough for the yard waste they are good enough for the grocery and the dog poop and the garbage can liner. So why not biodegradable?? Until we get those I need me my plastic bags.

    How about we ban all the disposable diapers first? All those tons and tons of poopy diapers in the land fills seem worse then bags.They have plastic also you know. Yes, Id have to do something different for mom...but at least I'd have a darn bag to put it in!

    Posted 8 months ago #         

26. oddreality
    Member Profile

    In the winter they make excellent emergency shoe liners in the snow and freezing weather...keeps those feet toasty when the bus can't go any further and you have to walk a mile or more home.You can carry them in a briefcase or pocket so always handy.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

27. KBear
    Member Profile

    It's time to put an end to plastic bag entitlements. Let people pay for their own plastic bags.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

28. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootchman...

    yes, there are viable alternative products...
    merchants are not choosing to use them because of increased cost

    yes, there are recycling solutions..
    merchants are not choosing to implement aggressive recycling programs at their stores because of cost

    due to increased utilization of the program, many merchants no longer give out bring your own bag credits either

    and it's evident that the voluntary recycling program is not working well enough either

    it's broke kootch
    we need to fix it the only way we can
    with legislation
    because those that could easily do so...
    don't choose to

    Posted 8 months ago #         

29. JoB
    Member Profile

    oddreality...

    if you hang onto your current supply of plastic bags you probably won't have to actually purchase plastic bags for some time...

    Posted 8 months ago #         

30. kootchman
    Member Profile

    KBear... packaging is hardly a subsidy... it is part of the purchasing transaction. When you can show me a government agency that pays a retail sales point to use plastic bags... then that is a subsidy. That makes as much sense as saying your coffee cup is a subsidy when you go the HW or Starbucks... Funny.... look IN the plastic bag at the contents... there is is the plastic.. milk cartons, cereal packages, ... all the packaging.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

31. datamuse
    Member Profile

    

    Funny you should mention that, kootch. A lot of manufacturers are reducing or even eliminating the amount of plastic they use. Maybe they know something.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

32. oddreality
    Member Profile

    Job, I do have quite the hoard of bags..heh..honestly, when my mom is gone I will not need so many bags.I would love to see biodegradable bags used instead of banning plastic bags. The biodegradables get better all the time.I see jobs lost if we ban completely and jobs gained if we move to biodegradable.Win win to me.I get my much used bags and others get to keep jobs.:)Cloth bags if not washed frequently are full of bacteria and much less sanitary. I do not like the cloth bags very much.They should be lined in plastic!! LOL
    I love that there is now getting to be less packaging on some items.We have had too many things over packaged for too long.I wish we would go back to glass bottles for most beverages with a redeemable deposit.That is how we made spending money as kids and it would be nice to have incentive to pick them up if they are dumped by the side of the road..pipe dream I am sure.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

33. singularname
    Member Profile

    Knee-jerk is a good word for a ban. As someone alludes to above, it's about consumption, not plastic bags. Years ago I stopped my donations to Greenpeace because of the catalog they sent a couple of times a year with keychains, t-shirts, and mugs. NO ONE has to buy any of these things NEW. Just checked their site: They're selling keychains, t-shirts, and mugs ... oh, and bags.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

34. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Yes... what they KNOW is consumers would prefer not to have oodles of packaging... that's what choice does. So I wondered... while standing in front of the bulk food dispensers.... which consumes less... those very lightweight, rolls of plastic or the packaging in the non=bulk bins? Hands down... the rolls of plastic bags were the better choice. Yea the six pack can holders...I see more of them when I am out on the boat...far more than plastic bags. (which I scoop up) while burning hundreds of gallons of marine fuel.... oh well, the conflicted state of being green some times... and not other times.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

35. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch..

    i wish i could say that i no longer buy anything that is packaged in those six pack holders.. but it isn't true..

    i do cut them into long strips without holes and recycle them.. it's the best i can do right now:(

    I have been practicing green since the 60s and still find myself collecting those durn plastic bags and way way too much packaging.

    if voluntary efforts were enough to solve the problem.. it would have been solved long ago.

    that is why we need more.

    oddreality

    i would love to see recylable bags...
    but it is going to take a real push to make grocers step up...
    it's more expensive and the bags aren't as strong :(

    my cloth bags go into the wash regularly...
    but it takes longer to get them back to my purse than to wash them:(

    Posted 8 months ago #         

36. nighthawk
    Member Profile

    The thing about banning plastic grocery bags, is that I reuse those bags as my trash bags. I'll just end up going to the store and buying garbage bags so it really won't save a whole bunch.

    I use reusable bags too, and then when my stash of plastic at home gets to low I go with those for a while.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

37. JoB
    Member Profile

    nighthawk

    if everyone was a responsible plastic bag user like yourself there would be no need to ban bags

    i agree.. that's how it should be
    but it obviously isn't how it is

    Posted 8 months ago #         

38. singularname
    Member Profile

    JoB ... I'm sure by "the wash" you mean a rock next to the Sound ... ;->

    Posted 8 months ago #         

39. JoB
    Member Profile

    singularname..

    ROFLOL... you got me.. and to think i nearly missed this:)

    No, i mean a high efficiency front loading washing machine with fragrance free ecologically kind detergent...

    and.. i use a dryer too.
    My rental agreement forbids me to hang washing outside and i get tired of dodging hanging laundry to take a bath:(

    We have been exploring the possibility of retiring in Ecuador and the upgrade to a rock there is a laundry room with a washtub.

    i think a corrugated washing surface is extra :(

    I am thinking that my modern conveniences are very convenient just now.

    if someone would invent something that would automatically restock my purse with clean shopping bags
    I am sure that would cinch the deal for me ;->

    Posted 8 months ago #         

40. JoB
    Member Profile

    singularname..

    one of the places we "looked" at on-line also had a communal oven...

    now wouldn't that be a hoot.. escaping from the drudgery of the communal hippy days of my youth to end my days cooking in a communal kitchen :)

    someone.. somewhere.. has a great sense of humor.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

41. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Funny thing... in my family we have a history of communal cooking.... generally it involved corn, sugar, charcoal, copper kettles and lots of charcoal... we all thought it was a "hoot" up in the "holler"... glasss jars for the excess/surplus to take home or... "sell" ..and my great grandfather recycled those Mason Jars.... over, and over and over again.

    Posted 8 months ago #         

42. velo_nut
    Member Profile

    

    Why... do... all of you... use... so... many of... these... I... hope... you dont... talk... like this...

    Posted 8 months ago #         

43. JoB
    Member Profile

    velo-nut...

    but... I do
    it's the pause where i gasp for breath
    or simply wait for my brain to find the next word

    It could be a sign of age

    Posted 8 months ago #         

44. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    i have a box of mason jars sitting on the porch
    someone was going to pick them up for canning and didn't get here

    want to feel nostalgic?

    Posted 8 months ago #         

45. kootchman
    Member Profile

    I was kinda bummed... I was hoping the state would keep the liquor stores... since GW Bush signed the Alternate Fuels Act... you can make good old 198 proof .legally, with a federal license.. and get a tax credit to boot! At those high liquor prices... there was a business model in there somewhere... moonshine stills are all over the internet now... a column distiller can crank out 198 proof for about $4.50 per gallon... sadly though.... since it now appears the people of WA are about to get a break and the state monopoly on liquor is going to be broken... the prices are going to fall. Le's see what the state liquor board does.. if they still "sin tax" it at the mandatory 20% mark-up... we may yet have an underground liquor economy... and those jars might come in handy. Since most cocktails are mixed... a few flavorings and voila' ... I mean really ... Stoly and cranberry juice? I even had the label designs and names... "Snakebit 120".. Underpass 90, Jobless Juice, Gregoire Grog, ..

    Posted 8 months ago #         

46. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch..

    they aren't doing much for my porch..

    but they are just right for moonshine hootch...
    I see DIY christmas presents

    Posted 8 months ago #         

47. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Hmmmm I could call them Octane Enhancers... which they would do... put a little zip in the old 87 grade...

    Posted 7 months ago #         

48. JoB
    Member Profile

    kootch...

    you are welcome to them
    they are one step from commercial recycling

    however..
    i won't be throwing in a lifetime supply of plastic bags

    Posted 7 months ago #         

49. singularname
    Member Profile

    All ... If you really care about plastic bags, one way or another, this is a must-watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDBtCb61Sd4.

    JoB ...

    Now THAT is a coincidence. The sole time my clothes were laundered on a rock by the river was in fact in Ecuador. Cuzco. They came back oddly stiff as a board with a little more wear and tear but they were extremely clean. The woman who laundered for me was very proud of her work and I loved tipping her for her well-deserved pride.

    Re. retirement there, for inspiration check out http://www.alishungu.com/. Quite a remarkable couple, Frank and Margaret, with whom I stayed 20 years ago. I'm sure a lot has changed since then.

    Velonut ... Just for you ... :->

    Posted 7 months ago #         

50. JoB
    Member Profile

    singularname..

    that oddly stiff as a board thing usually comes from line drying...

    in my miss-spent youth i cleaned clothes at the side of a river more than once.. but with the modern convenience of a scrub-board.

    it's a good thing laundry is cheap there:)

    thanks for the link...
    we hope to make trip there this next year.

    Posted 7 months ago #         

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