West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

1. dobro
   Member Profile

   

   A little light reading for the holiday. Happy 4th!!

   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/07/04/991288/-Everything-I-Know-About-the-Founding-Fathers-I-Learned-from-Republicans?via=siderec

   Posted 10 months ago #         

2. kootchman
   Member Profile

   Well, when you want to read something serious.. the biography of one Benito Mussolini will show the logical progression of a socialist "progressive" liberal. The all knowing, wiser than thou, convinced that the "state" is an organ of the party, solver of all things... and step one is gain control of the civil service and reward it with confiscated wealth. I know you have an affinity for light reading..

   Posted 10 months ago #         

3. dobro
   Member Profile

   

   Who wrote this bio of Mussolini you cite and when did you read it?

   Posted 10 months ago #         

4. DP
   Member Profile

   

   The info on Mussolini is a matter of common knowledge, dobro. kootchman was being rhetorical in his use of "biography."

   Historically, absolutist dictatorships (Mussolini, Stalin, Castro) have tended to spring from the Left. Even the Nazis took an anti-capitalist line early in their rise to power. "Authoritarian" dictatorships on the other hand — such as the ones that have long bedeviled Latin America — tend to come from the Right.

   [—Right? You're bloody well right . . .]

   You're just as dead under one as the other, so who's splitting hairs? (Jeanne Kirkpatrick, maybe, but not me.)

   kootchman's mistake on this in trying to draw some kind of direct line of progression from a legitimate democratic government trying to solve problems to an illegitimate dictatorship imposing the "final solutions." If we follow kootch's logic, places like Sweden would be hell on earth.

   Radio Free Sweden, anyone?
   Yeah, baby!

   

   Posted 10 months ago #         

5. dobro
   Member Profile

   

   Thanks, but I'm versed in history. I asked my question because when someone tells me about something I should read it makes me curious, both about the book and if the person actually read it or is quoting stuff they read about it. I don't see how you deduce the rhetorical quality of his statement from his construction.

   "If we follow kootch's logic..."

   If you can stand to try that you're a better man than I.

   Posted 10 months ago #         

6. kootchman
   Member Profile

   It's a tough one ... Benito Mussolini and Facist Italy...easy to remember Sweden, was until the early 1920's a country of emigree's ... and I believe Seattle is one of those cities who benefited greatly from getting their most ambitious..we were the leading destination country. Europe, started its' drift towards socialism or facism...take your pick...after WW 1 . They are a satisfied people by most measures ..Sweden is hardly our "role" model... it's a whitey white country, with a population less than NC... gotta do a quick Wiki check for Dobro here.... yep 32K Somali, let's give them the moniker of a great all inclusive country of diversity... add middle east immigrations as "people' of color...about 250K total diversity..bout 3%....and much of that is refugee status.. What's not to be happy about? Pretty easy governance I would say... Ya think that would transfer well here? Not this great polyglot.. of 312 million. Dobro..easy pickings

   Posted 10 months ago #         

7. kootchman
   Member Profile

   In the case of Mr Mussolini...however there is a direct line...

   Posted 10 months ago #         

8. kootchman
   Member Profile

   The keystone of the Fascist doctrine is its conception of the State, of its essence, its functions, and its aims. For Fascism the State is absolute, individuals and groups relative.
   Benito Mussolini

   Posted 10 months ago #         

9. Ken
   Member Profile

   

   "The American Legion is fighting every element that threatens our democratic government--Soviets, anarchists, IWW, revolutionary socialists, and every other red.... Do not forget that the Fascisti are to Italy what the American Legion is to the U.S."
   -- Legion Commander-in-Chief Alvin Owsley

   A fox style "question":
   Are authoritarian republicans fools or just gullible?

   Newt got where he is today by twisting and cherrypicking history to justify the new authoritarian right that has given us such a clown car of republican craziness candidates this year.

   Posted 10 months ago #         

10. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    ------------------------------------------------
    "are there not many fascists in your country?"

    "There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes."

    "But you cannot destroy them until they rebel?"

    "No," Robert Jordan said.

    "We cannot destroy them. But we can educate the people so that they will fear fascism and recognize it as it appears and combat it."
    --Ernest Hemingway ('For Whom The Bell Tolls', 1940)

    Posted 10 months ago #         

11. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    “All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage-torture, the use of hostages, forced labor, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians-which does not change its moral color when committed by ‘our’ side.… The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”

    George Orwell,“Notes on Nationalism.” ,1945

    Posted 10 months ago #         

12. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    well, let's see what the great oracle, wikipedia, has to say on mussolini's national fascist party:

    Given Italian Fascism’s pragmatic political amalgamations of left-wing and right-wing socio-economic policies, discontented workers and peasants proved an abundant source of popular political power, especially because of peasant opposition to socialist agricultural collectivism. Thus armed, the former socialist Benito Mussolini oratorically inspired and mobilized country and working-class people: “We declare war on socialism, not because it is socialist, but because it has opposed nationalism. . . . ” Moreover, for campaign financing, in the 1920–21 period, the National Fascist Party also courted the industrialists and (historically-feudal) landowners, by appealing to their fears of left-wing socialist and Bolshevik labor politics and urban and rural strikes; the Fascists promised a good business climate of cost-effective labor, wage, and political stability; the Fascist Party was en route to power...

    some of that sounds familiar...

    Posted 10 months ago #         

13. dobro
    Member Profile

    

    Just curious- did anybody actually look at the article I posted that was the erstwhile subject of this thread? It had absolutely nothing to do with Mussolini.

    PS I realize now that in the original threadjacking that there was no bio of Mussolini and we're now just another vehicle for kootch's right wing fever dreams.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

14. waynster
    Member Profile

    

    Last time I looked at the history books fascist world leaders are dead. The one killed at the hands of his own people. Italians fell for it during a world depression as did the Germans. The only thing that came out of it is hate. Hatred towards race and religions. So why read a book of hate and take quotes from it .....?

    Posted 10 months ago #         

15. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    sorry, dobro. it is kind of related to your article, though.

    the colonists in boston in 1773 were attempting to shirk rule by big money and favoritism toward big industry, after all.

    mussolini was essentially doing the same thing to italian laborers that george III was doing to american colonists. which is what the GOP wants to do to american labor.

    i blame the education industry for americans' general lack of knowledge of their own history, world history, and how the two are intertwined - which will inevitably lead to repetition of the same mistakes.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

16. DP
    Member Profile

    

    kootch's original point was that Mussolini was once a socialist and had socialist ideals. This is common knowledge. No academic debate or quote wars required.

    The central question here (for everyone who keeps wanting to jump the track) is whether socialism inexorably leads to totalitarianism. I say no and there are plenty of examples why not. You can't say Sweden is exceptional simply because the people there are all white (or that it's a small nation) any more than I could say Italy went fascist because it's shaped like a jackboot. Sweden is a sovereign nation with the same fundamental challenge as other nations: how to make its people happy. The difference between Sweden and other countries is that Swedes have made a conscious, democratic choice to devote a large share of their GNP (via taxes) to things like education, health care, and worker benefits.

    Has that led to a dangerous accumulation of power in the hands of the Swedish government? Hardly! Why the Swedish government wouldn't hurt a fly.

    Would a socialist program à la Sweden's lead to a dangerous accumulaton of government power here in America? Not if it's done democratically, with Americans being involved in the process at every step of the way.

    I hear the concern from the Right on this. They don't want bureaucrats making decisions for them, and I'm with them on that one. However, the answer to that concern is for Americans to get more involved with their government, not less.

    And when I say "get more involved" that doesn't mean shouting down politicians at town hall meetings. It doesn't mean bellyaching about socialism and being against every public spending measure. It means getting together with your friends AND your "enemies" to come up with solutions to social problems, and then staying involved and seeing it through to the end.

    Kootchman, please . . . Enough already with the ellipses. Every time you do one of those dots, I want you to put a nickel into a jar. At the end of the year, you'll have enough in there to pay your taxes AND catch a quick flight to Stockholm for some overnight fraternizing with the beautiful blonde enemy.

    ;-)

    Posted 10 months ago #         

17. Genesee Hill
    Member Profile

    

    Plus, ABBA is still popular in Sweden. He might even run into Agnetha, if he is real lucky.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

18. waynster
    Member Profile

    

    Hold it now Sweden like Canada. ABBA Sweden Ann Murray Canada. Socialize meds and other programs, heck DP he only needs to save enough for the drive north...A ...... alas no blonde bomb shells....:-(

    Posted 10 months ago #         

19. miws
    Member Profile

    

    The repubs are trying to rewrite history, for god's sake!

    Mike

    Posted 10 months ago #         

20. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Ahhh history... Coming from the lineage of Ulster Scots..erroroneously referred to as the Scots irish.. their history with Charles ll was such that they hit the hills and wanted nothiing to do with centralized anything. Religion or government. This is ingrained in our national DNA As Cornwallis was to say the American Revolution was nothing more than the continuation of the Presbyterian unrest in Ireland. Europe in it's centuries of political evolution has lurched from one form of centralized government to the next. while NYC was seeking compromise and restoration with George lll and was equally split over independence and the tory sentiment, Philadelphia, with Quaker tolerance became the destination port of Ulster Scots. Philadelphia was the hot seat for the crown and rabidly revolutionary. This would be the trumping culture of individualism and the primacy of the individual over a collective sentiment.. Sweden and all of Europe had centuries of submissive conditioning to accept and make peace with centralized governments. If you reread my post.. it said the logical progression of "a" liberal/progressive...not ALL liberals or ALL progressives. It is a possible outcome. Given the vitrol of the body politic, we are looking less and less like an evolving social democracy...and more like a people seeking and succumbing to a 'state" of all solutions. Facism is in the airl... IMHO

    Posted 10 months ago #         

21. kootchman
    Member Profile

    Look at the Netherlands..one as placid, as liberal as any Swede...and once as white, monolithic as any Scandia country. They have a rising ant-immigrant, and angry anti-government, in your face opposition. A very stressed national unity with a rising backlash of a reactionary movement. A monoculture is easier to govern, to reach consensus. I strongly doubt we find our solutions in European governance. We are not homogeneous enough.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

22. Genesee Hill
    Member Profile

    

    ...no...kootch... we...will...find...our...salvation...with...you...

    I...hope...you...drink...homogenized...milk...

    If...you...don't...you...are...in...trouble...

    ...

    Posted 10 months ago #         

23. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    Kootch.

    I am Scotch Irish and Welsh and grew up in Cumberland county NC. Sure there are a lot of theofascists, KKK, and wingnuts there but the region is still 45% Liberal Democrats. The DNA of the Scots descendents might lean towards authoritarianism but education and developing empathy that can reach beyond the end of your arm can fix that.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

24. kootchman
    Member Profile

    They don't lean towards authoritarianism... quite the opposite. I stated the opposite. The Cumberland Gap was as symbolic as it was geography. Our ancestors went into isolation because of their finely attuned sense of church AND state oppression. ..The south went Democrat after the civil war. Lincoln was a republican... and I would not say "liberal" either..that they are not.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

25. JoB
    Member Profile

    DP...

    and with one fell swoop you cut to the crux of the matter...

    "You can't say Sweden is exceptional simply because the people there are all white (or that it's a small nation) any more than I could say Italy went fascist because it's shaped like a jackboot."

    loved it :)

    Posted 10 months ago #         

26. redblack
    Member Profile

    

    kootch: your first mistake is conflating authoritarianism and fascism.

    one is a form of governance, the other is a socioeconomic model.

    Posted 10 months ago #         

27. Ken
    Member Profile

    

    http://www.dalhousielodge.org/Thesis/scotstonc.htm

    Posted 10 months ago #         

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.