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1. mplumer
   Member Profile

   I was wondering if anyone has noticed an increased amount of airplane noise over West Seattle today (Sunday Oct 11th). Is this a permanent change in routes or due to weather patterns?

   Posted 2 years ago #         

2. JanS
   Member Profile

   

   I suppose it depends on what part of WS you're talking about. I'm in the Admiral District, and have noticed nothing out of the ordinary. There may have been some fog in places this morning which may have changed things.

   We live near an international airport....guess I just expect to hear them. It's inevitable.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

3. bluebird
   Member Profile

   Could be another situation like this:

   http://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=20295

   Posted 2 years ago #         

4. celeste17
   Member Profile

   

   That is what I was thinking when I read this post earlier. Sometimes flight paths will change for a short while and because the noise is more focused we are more aware of it.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

5. Leroniusmonkfish
   Member Profile

   

   OMG Bluebird - I had to laugh at the link you provided above as obviously I was involved in that one but either lost interest and/or it was also being discussed in another thread? The subsequent posts on that link from a Patty Fong, which I hadn't seen before really crack me up....she's obviously quite vocal about this matter as I found on this site:

   http://www.magnoliavoice.com/2009/09/03/airplane-noise-on-the-rise/

   Her 4th post down pretty much lists everything that is currently in place??? But I really like her comment - "Advocate for immediate quieter airplane technology"....aircraft, or should I say engine manufacturers have been doing this for ages! That's why you no longer see old Boeing 727's flying into SeaTac or Boeing Field without "Hush" kits (modified engines)...don't worry Patty, I'm sure Boeing, EADS, G.E., Rolls Royce, Pratt & Whitney, etc. are all looking out for you!

   For some good info if you are up for it take a look about 13 posts down by someone under the name "Ruffner" as he/she explains the current scenario for Boeing Field from an inbound/landing scenario quite well and is a Commercial Pilot as am I.

   I used to fly in and out of KBFI (Boeing Field) pretty much on a daily basis for years and yes, I would be instructed to fly over Magnolia for the ILS 13 approach as stated in the above post but was always vectored by controllers to keep out over Puget Sound and/or Elliott Bay as much as possible for both landing and takeoff patterns in and out of Boeing Field but obviously this was dependent upon the direction of your arrival and departure...

   Sorry for this drawn out post...aviation is a love of mine and I will defend it whenever I see something that doesn't quite sound substantially backed up by factual information.

   On this one I would chalk it up to the cold air you had and that sound travels quite a bit further when it's cold...I personally wasn't there but am assuming there wasn't any major weather issue (fog, low clouds, etc.) to cause abnormal flight deviations?

   Posted 2 years ago #         

6. bluebird
   Member Profile

   Ms. Fong is definitely on a serious mission. The expectation of quiet in a big city always surprises me.

   I'm one of those who love all the noises. Sirens, ships, trains, planes...all good.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

7. cjboffoli
   Member Profile

   

   I'm not sure I'd characterize places like West Seattle and Seatac as the "big city." But even then who says that cities need to be loud? New York City processes hundreds of thousands of complaints to its non-emergency 311 line every year and the majority of those calls are in regard to noise.

   It's great for you if you can ignore (or even, it seems, appreciate) the various noises in a city. But there are many others who have different sensibilities. Excessive noise is regarded as a form of pollution and it can be harmful.

   I'm sympathetic with the original poster who probably lives on a quiet block in West Seattle and wondered why he/she suddenly heard a lot of air traffic rumbling overhead.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

8. DMcG
   Member Profile

   There was a post over on the Central District News site this morning that discusses some of this stuff. Not surprisingly it mentions Patty Fong. http://www.centraldistrictnews.com/2009/10/12/airplane-noise-no-changes-any-time-soon

   There are some things in that post that talk about ways that noise is being reduced as technology advances.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

9. bluebird
   Member Profile

   Christopher I get your need to challenge/correct my every post, but I was referring to Seattle proper, not just one block.

   And the OP wasn't seeking sympathy as far as I can tell. Just an answer to an observation, which I responded to with a link on possible causes.

   My enjoyment of "city" noises is nothing but an opinion, but I'm up for arguing about a new danger (noise pollution) lurking in our neighborhoods and destroying the very fiber of our lives.

   Posted 2 years ago #         

10. christopherboffoli
    Member Profile

    bluebird: I have no interest in challenging/correcting your every post. That's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? And since I've lost your personal and professional respect that would be an exercise in futility anyway, wouldn't it? :-)

    I was merely voicing my support to the original poster who seemed to be articulating a concern and asking a question. I too would be concerned if I suddenly found my house under a new flight path.

    I commend you on your ability to endure things like noise and sidestream smoke. I really do. I just disagree that living in a city means that everyone should tolerate it at the same rate you do. My point in mentioning NYC was that it is a very large city and yet has many people who have a tough time coping with noise. To me a lot of people living in close proximity means everyone should be more considerate to those around us, not that everyone should do whatever they want and everyone else should just suck it up because "it's a city." Your tone seems somewhat dismissive and minimizing on this topic so I suspect we disagree.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

11. WSB
    Member Profile

    

    Those interested in this issue may want to attend the Thursday night Alki Community Council meeting. Just got info on it tonight and will be incorporating it into a main-page neighborhood roundup. The group meets at the Alki Community Center. From the announcement sent by Larry Carpenter:
    >>At the Alki Community Council meeting on Thursday, October 15 at 7:00 p.m., ACC member Ed Hanson will report on the potential impact on West Seattle of Alaska Airlines' "Greener Skies Initiative." Ed is the West Seattle representative on the Roundtable advisory group to the King County Airport Administration (Boeing Field).

    Changes in the altitudes and flight patterns of Alaska's Seatac flights could impact Boeing Field operations and increase traffic over West Seattle and Elliott Bay. <<

    Posted 2 years ago #         

12. Leroniusmonkfish
    Member Profile

    

    Interesting...Alaska Airlines has always been on the cutting edge of technology as they were one of the first to incorporate heads up displays to allow landings in extremely low visibility condition aka HUD.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

13. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    Hey, Mr. Fish. Out of curiosity, who did/do you fly for?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

14. Leroniusmonkfish
    Member Profile

    

    I worked for Wings Aloft and got my Commercial & Instrument ratings there. Then I worked for Seattle Jet Center before we were bought out by Galvins.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

15. JanS
    Member Profile

    

    cool, thanks. I was just curious :)

    Posted 2 years ago #         

16. bsmomma
    Member Profile

    

    I'm pretty aware of my surroundings. I have heard helicopters fly over our previous tr-plex just off of Admiral and I seriously thought it was going to crash. Now were at the top of Admiral. There have been nights where I awoke from a deep sleep because of a low flying airplane. Again waited for a crash. Our whole house shook. This has happened on more than 1 occasion. I have also experienced driving over the WS Bridge in the 7am hour and saw a VERY low flying airplane. Others were just as shocked. There is a fine line between a "safe" flying height and to close for comfort!

    Posted 2 years ago #         

17. Leroniusmonkfish
    Member Profile

    

    Well, if you were driving across the WS Bridge then yes, you would see low flying aircraft on their approach/departure for Boeing Field either landing to the South or taking off to the North.

    bsmomma - just because you hear an aircraft overhead doesn't necessarily mean that the next sound you hear will be that of a crash. And yes, there are FAA regulations that dictate how low aircraft can fly over populated areas.

    Can anyone here on the WSB remember when the last time an aircraft (airplane, helicopter, blimp, etc.) last crashed into a populated area in Seattle?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

18. digidoll
    Member Profile

    

    There was that one that landed in the water in front of Salty's a couple of years back... it an old Stratoliner that had been restored and was on it's way to a museum, I think. Not "in" a populated area, but pretty darn close.

    Edit: it was in '02.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

19. Leroniusmonkfish
    Member Profile

    

    Digidoll, I actually witnessed that crash but from my home in Queen Anne at the time. Fuel starvation was the final reason for the crash from the NTSB.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=SEA02FA060&rpt=fa

    I saw the plane in all it's restored glory at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center in Chantilly, VA next to Dulles International Airport a couple of years ago.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

20. digidoll
    Member Profile

    

    Yeah, I was at Salty's, that's why I remembered it!

    I would think that it is more likely to "land" a plane on water rather than crashing into a populated area in this city. Now, if the problem stems from critical parts falling off the plane, then it might not be as easy to steer it to a "safe" landing.

    Think of the Hudson River crash this year... What if that plane had taken off from, say, Atlanta?

    Posted 2 years ago #         

21. Leroniusmonkfish
    Member Profile

    

    Any pilot in command is trained to direct an aircraft in distress from populated areas. I remember being taught that while flying at night in the event of an engine failure (single engine) to look for the darkest spot. This was to ensure that you didn't hit any power lines or populated structures (homes, buildings, nuclear power plants, etc.).

    If the US Airways flight that successfully landed in the Hudson River had departed Hartsfield INTL (KATL) it would probably have ditched in the extensive farmlands outside of Atlanta if it couldn't be vectored back to ATL or another suitable airport and unfortunately not with the same outcome.

    Posted 2 years ago #         

22. undertheflightpath
    Member Profile

    I'm Patty Fong in the Central District and though some of my technical information may be inaccurate, i would like to be taken seriously on the matter of being under the flight path. I work out of my home so I am in a position to have observed the fact that we are now under the flight path almost 24/7. this is unbearable and intolerable and has nothing to do with the temperature of the air; the noise was worse this summer when it all started. I submit this link to you from the Naples, Florida airport where they have some sensible and humane mitigations in place. I am hoping we can do the same. Incidentally I am not against the aviation industry unless they fail to pay attention or violate rules of flight nor do I endorse the contention that cities include noise. City noise is not equivalent to being under the flight path and furthermore city noise is regulated by city ordinance. OK, here's the link to Naples Florida Airport. Thanks for reading.

    http://www.flynaples.com/index.php/noise-abatement/noise-abatement/noise-abatement-information

    Patty Fong
    Follow us on Facebook "Under the Flightpath".
    seawabear@yahoo.com

    Posted 2 years ago #         

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