West Seattle Blog...

WSB Forum » Open Discussion

(140 posts)

A chance at unbanning your grocery bags

Started 5 months ago by munchkin22
Latest reply from redblack

munchkin22
Member Profile

A petition is available for those of you who think that WE should have the final say on whether our beloved/hated plastic bags will remain or go.
http://www.saveourchoice.us/

Posted 5 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

I'll see your petition and raise you 1 lawsuit.

Posted 5 months ago #
funkietoo
Member Profile

Sometimes we need to look at the entire system and this is one of them.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using plastic bags.

Also, plastic bags are a petroleum product...which many of us are trying to take steps to reduce our dependency on---especially since a lot of that money funds folks like (the late) Bin Laden, and other terrorists.

http://www.earthresource.org/campaigns/capp/capp-background-info.html

http://www.science20.com/enrico_dorigo/will_banning_plastic_bags_help_environment-75598

http://www.google.com/search?q=plastic+bags+environment&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QNz0TtzGN6fKiAKNmvWODQ&ved=0CGQQsAQ&biw=1115&bih=566

To all, please take the time to research the pros and cons. Then vote...whether we vote the same way or not.

Munchkin22...hope you still love me. ;0)

Posted 5 months ago #
cjboffoli
Member Profile

Maybe while we're at it we can draw up a petition to allow us to once again use ozone-depleting chlorofluorocarbons, to restore lead to our gasoline and the pipes for our drinking water, and to make it legal to hunt whales to extinction. After all, the right of the individual to choose what's right for themselves (with total disregard for the greater good) is the highest priority, no? Heck, why not also remove the requirements that Cardiothoracic surgeons be board certified? Because who needs government regulations? No siree, we're not gonna let the Nanny state tell US what to do!

:-)

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

unfortunately, the info on this petition page is not accurate “unless you act now this law will ban bags starting January 18, 2012.”
~
pretty sure, after signed by mayor, ban on bags would begin July 1, 2012

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

First of all, I respect your comments and opinions, and yes Funkietoo, we still love you. Wow, I thought that I phrased my post as rather neutral as to the outcome.
We oppose the City Council opposing what appears to be the will of the people. Once again, the vote means nothing? I realize last time we rejected a fee for bags. Did they bother to look at their political futures when they made this decision? Did they do their research? We'll see where this goes. Personally I have plenty of bags. It's not really about the bags, well it is but it isn't. Gee I'm getting all emotional now.....What about the mercury filled lightbulbs we'll now be forced to use. In the name of what? We have primarily non polluting hydro generated electricity here in the NW so I say we should seek an exemption for those as well. We have enough mercury in the system already. Besides, the ones we've gotten fall far short of the performance and lifetime stated.
I remember several people up in arms the other day on this forum that were upset with the new bag law and it crossed the political spectrum. Have you already forgotten?
BTW cjboffoli, I'm with you on most of what you say, but I do struggle with nanny state interference on some items.

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

The article listed on petition page is excellent, and my #1 reason for being opposed to plastic bag ban, public health & safety, especially children:
~
Reusable Grocery Bags Contaminated With E. Coli, Other Bacteria
http://www.uanews.org/node/32521
~
few top lines:
~
“The research study – which randomly tested reusable grocery bags carried by shoppers in Tucson, Los Angeles and San Francisco – also found consumers were almost completely unaware of the need to regularly wash their bags.
~
"Our findings suggest a serious threat to public health, especially from coliform bacteria including E. coli, which were detected in half of the bags sampled," said Charles Gerba, a UA professor of soil, water and environmental science and co-author of the study. "Furthermore, consumers are alarmingly unaware of these risks and the critical need to sanitize their bags on a weekly basis."
~
Bacteria levels found in reusable bags were significant enough to cause a wide range of serious health problems and even death. They are a particular danger for young children, who are especially vulnerable to food-borne illnesses, Gerba said.
~
The study also found that awareness of potential risks was very low. A full 97 percent of those interviewed never washed or bleached their reusable bags, said Gerba, adding that thorough washing kills nearly all bacteria that accumulate in reusable bags.”
~
~
~
“New reusable bags and plastic bags were tested; none contained any contamination.”

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

Diane, if you read section 6 on the back of the petition, you'll find that this ordinance takes effect 30 days after the mayor signs it. The July date is when they can start fining for non-compliance is what I've been told. Thanks for your input on the health aspect of reusable bags.I guess "the greater good" is at question here. I'll pick a clean plastic bag any day instead of following a harried, "too busy to wash their reusable" person in front of me, contaminating the conveyor belt. One day at our local store a lady brought her dog's vomit in a knapkin and put it on the belt for the cashier to dispose of. He froze in shock for a moment for what she had done.
Cats like to mark things that smell unfamiliar to them. What better than a reusable bag that just made a trip and came back with all sorts of smells that need defending from? Then there's meat drippings, dairy leaks, and on and on. Our plastic bags usually get only two uses, groceries and waste disposal. If they get soiled on the trip home, straight to the garbage. We overbag our trash so the ability for a bag to escape into the environment is extremely slim. We believe ourselves to be good stewards as we garden organically and use no pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. We recycle to a fault.
Aren't a lot of these reusable bags made from petroleum as well? Not into hemp myself.

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

Thanks munchkin22 for more great examples of why this bag ban is not good for human health/safety

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Right...and of COURSE . the "left outs" never, ever, ignore science, ignore research, fudge and skew data as long as it fits their particular catechism of herd thought. The facts are, plastic bags consume less landfill space, require less energy to produce than paper, are far more sanitary, have more secondary uses, do not consume carbon sequestering trees, have a smaller carbon footprint, are safer, do not require washing or detergents that end up in our waters... say funkie.. ever see a pulping plant? caustic soda, sulphuric acid de-lignification, bleaching (dioxin can be a by-product) chip boiling reduction, pulp drying, finish paper drying,lime kilns (huge carbon dioxide emitter..reducing calcium carbonate to calcium hydroxide) Ya think the energy for those boilers, surge pumps, digesters, lights, logging trucks, deilvery trucks etc... come from Weenie Greenie heaven or Solyndra? In just volume alone..it takes 8 times as much energy to deliver paper bags as they are 8 times more bulky. Ya can't play the green card on this one. Reuseable bag reliance is racist and unsafe for the poor .. you ignore public health for all those who can't wash bags after every use...who don't have access to washing machines... but who cares right? They have sturdier immune systems.... that natural selection thing, especially the homeless. White liberals...goofy if not dangerous. The greater good eh? Not on this one...greater reliance on three monkey thought process. You are all perfectly willing to listen to snippets of skewed data from think-a-likes.. and not do the research...

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

watch it kootchman; I’m a “white liberal”, and agree with you
~
funny comment last night at bus stop when I asked a black man who was carrying his groceries in plastic bags, “what do you think of the plastic bag ban?”; he says, “I just can’t get into carrying those femmie reusable bags”, which being a girl, never thought about

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

You go Kootchman. But wait, aren't there more than 3 on the city council? And I'm not sure about "thought process".
Thanks for bringing more insight to the table.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Ask a greenie... Dear Greenie... I have heard, that the largest sequestration of carbon dioxide is, limestone from ancient seas and in biomass such as trees. Is this true? Concerned.

Dear concerned,

Yes this is true. Except in Seattle. In Seattle we break the sequestration science into a very special city council magic wand
of wishful thinking. What we do that is very very special..is we go all in.. we use high energy consuming pulp plants that cook off carbon dioxide from lime. As it rises into the special air of Puget sounds... we beat drums and convert it to candy. The carbon dioxide sequestered in the bio mass of trees that are released in the de-lignification, cooking, and bio degradation are captured in special fairy nets and we turn them into plastic chairs so we can all watch "An Inconvenient Truth" in a great big semi-circle where we pass out self congradulatory cards. That's how we roll in Seattle

Yours truly in Luddite Science -- "Greenie"

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

But where does the Kool aid come in? Kool aid and carbon dioxide candy....mmmmmmmm good.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Ahhh that's the real magic... they are called Pop Rocks... carbon dioxide entraining "kook aid"

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

Good one, I love when magic happens.....

Posted 5 months ago #
WSB
Member Profile

The ordinance does take effect a month after the mayoral signature (which was the day the council passed it). HOWEVER, the ordinance that takes effect is an ordinance that stipulates the new rules kick in July 1st. Therefore, as of January 19th, an ordinance is in effect that says there will be a plastic-bag ban as of July 1st. - TR

http://is.gd/1l8alq (full text of the ordinance)

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

thanks for clarifying TR

Posted 5 months ago #
singularname
Member Profile

I propose dog poop be picked up by *hand* also ... that should help the environment, too.

Posted 5 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i am guessing we won't see many reusable shopping bags snagged in trees or blowing down the street because someone was too lazy to bundle and recycle them...

and while you are worrying about those unwashed shopping bags on your grocery's conveyer belt.. you might want to take a look around the store and ask yourself what was on the hands of the people who placed the groceries on that belt.. and how often that thing gets cleaned anyway...

methinks there is much ado about nothing going on here

i for one am glad that the city council took politics and advertising as much out of the equation as possible and made a decision that will ultimately benefit us all.

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

I would not say “coliform bacteria including E. coli, which were detected in half of the bags sampled” is “much ado about nothing”
~
and yes, as I’ve stated repeatedly in comments re bag ban, in this forum and on front page story, I wash everything that’s washable before it goes into my fridge/cupboards, because I’m well aware of the many germy hands of both employees and shoppers that touch items prior to my purchase; I put my grocery items in a handled basket, onto the belt, to avoid as many germs on the belt as possible, and have them loaded into clean paper/plastic bags, which I reuse for garbage and many other uses; I’ve even made curtains out of Trader Joe’s bags; plastic bags are perfect for stinky poopy diapers; and for people with cats, the poop should go in plastic bags so there’s no leakage; the Waste Management dude (who was part of panel with Bellingham folks who brought this ban to Seattle) told us that cat waste is very dangerous to humans, so should be bagged in plastic, and NEVER in the toilet; he said dog waste should go in plastic, otherwise bags could break and endanger the health of garbage collectors; he also told us that the hard plastics we all religiously separate into recycle bins, most ends up getting dumped into garbage at Waste Management facilities; therein lies the problem, not with us; we are already doing our job really well at recycling; WM is undoing our hard work; I asked if public could tour their facilities, like we are welcomed at the award winning recycler Nucor; he said no; gee, wonder why?; what do they have to hide?
~
I rarely see plastic bags “snagged in trees or blowing down the street”
~
since I take the bus often, see lots of folks carrying their groceries in fresh/clean plastic bags, so I’ve been asking, “what do you think about the new plastic bag ban?”; so far, zero knew about it before it passed and hit the news, they reuse their bags for garbage and other uses, and do not like the bag ban
~
I disagree this bag ban will “ultimately benefit us all”; I agree with "Our findings suggest a serious threat to public health” with increased/enforced use of reusable bags, “A full 97 percent of those interviewed never washed or bleached their reusable bags”

Posted 5 months ago #
2 Much Whine
Member Profile

I am so lucky. Fifty plus years of not worrying about germs on doorknobs, germs from kisses, germs on conveyor belts and germs in bags. Germs, germs EVERYWHERE! Never worried about washing things before putting them away and never been sick from it. In addition, studies suggest the shopping bag is the least of our worries, shopping carts, hand baskets and salad bars pose a greater risk - but again never worried about it and never got sick. Think of how much extra time I have to surf the blog. . . . .I am confused, however by the backlash - 20 years ago plastic bags were not even an option at the grocery store and now they are "indespensable?" I suppose since they are perfect for so many things someone will start selling them directly to the consumer and you can just bring your own to the store or to pick up poo. If they are loved so much I think there is a market for that concept. If the marketing machine behind the plastic companies saw the writing on the wall they'd change their approach and sell directly to the people that love their product so much.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

2 Much Whine... I agree. Though I would think the machine would be confiscated by the city "bag ladies"..gets a new urban definition though. great opportunity for the homeless women to sell and make some money. Break em' down to 10 bags in a roll for 40 cents. A huge profit margin... 10 bags cost about 8 cents. Of course, I am sure the city council will find out .. and find a way to sell a special vendors license and have the famous SPD enforce it.. cause it's the Seattle way. The Seattle City Council defanged the opposition by pulling them into the tax conspiracy..they are paying the grocery stores 5 cents per bag to be quiet. Taxing us, to bribe the stores, to fit a defenseless agenda... and the burden falls on who? Why those that can least afford it of course. Safeway selling nickel bags now? Call DEA

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

DBP. Ya mean..if the voters spanked the city council and challenged the bag tariff bribe... by the constitutionally sanctified right to petition by initiative there would be a lawsuit? I think there is a better way... the ethics of paying tax money to private companies for their silence and assent?!!! Say.. I guess the Democrats just won't mend their ways will they? Crony capitalism at the expense of the 99% Bad enough we had lobbyists.. now we have government mandating we pay revenue to private companies by force of law? Ohhh I smell a lawsuit alright... a class action one.

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

was that you I saw on the news munchkin22; good job!!!

Posted 5 months ago #
DBP
Member Profile

Sadly, nothing is ever "a done deal" in Seattle.

Whenever the Council passes a law that pisses someone off – and what law doesn't piss SOMEONE off? – citizens groups and/or corporations launch a petition to overturn it.

If the people pass a law by initiative, then either the Council invalidates it or some other group ties it up in court.

And then there's the never-ending tussles between Council and Mayor that can gum up the works at any point in the process of making or implementing a law, as we saw with the viaduct replacement saga.

Whatever happened to the spirit of political compromise? Why do people approach problems from the angle of How can I get everything I want? instead of How can we do the most good for the most people?

I'm for the bag ban, but as someone else pointed out, we just took a vote on this a couple of years ago and a majority of voters said: We want our bags.

In retrospect, I think the Council should've let this dog lie.

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

No, but that was a friend of ours. His heart is in this one. We introduced him to the WS Blog yesterday so we may start seeing his input soon.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

DPB...making laws, restricting rights, imposing freedom limits should be contentious, long, drawn out things. The City Council rules by fiat... not consent of the governed. We have initiatives as a check on the powers of government. Ya know that wind blows both ways dear blogger... some times the initiatives are disgustingly naive, expensive, (yes, my opinion) however, I tend to settle down and accept the result of an initiative as more representative of the will of the people. Even the stupid ones.

The city council defied the will of the people. We voted against the bag ban and the bag fee. It should have died and we should have moved on to other issues. Remember how we voted DOWN the damn ball stadium 4 times? Yet vested interests kept bribing the city, and they repackaged that turkey until it passed. Wait and see... now we have a basketball team subsidy they will try and sell... do you remember how they did it? I do. They declared a damn ball stadium an "essential service" a clause intended to put waste treatment plants, power stations, bus terminals etc... by eminent domain. Not ball stadiums. Clear abuse of power.

Posted 5 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

kootch...

defied the will of the people?
i remember the ads on the bill you think defined the will of the people..
they were anti-tax ads

once again people in washington voted against something that was presented to them as a tax..

from the ads you would have hardly known plastic bags were the issue at all

Posted 5 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Diane..

those cartons your eggs come in have been known to harbor e coli.
but i am guessing that if you move them to another container when you get them home, you simply wash them first.

you can wash your reusable grocery bags too...

i do.

Posted 5 months ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

I for one am kind of curious who is funding the website 'Save Our Choice Seattle' as their is absolutely no info except a PO box and phone number (oh yeah, our buddy and fellow occasional poster FreeRangeAuthor, is id'd as posting info.) I've heard that at least some of these petition sites are funded by the petrochemical industry (i.e. plastic bag manufacturers.) Kind of odd to me that it ends in '.us'.

Also, the germ issue is a red herring. First, I am confident Seattlites can be educated on the need for washing their reusable bags; after all, we learned to recycle.

Second, here's a news flash: germs are EVERYWHERE!!!! OMG!!! Seems like every week there is another study published about germs on:
- door knobs and elevator buttons;
- paper currency (and anything over a $20 can get you high if you sniff it);
- water from restaurants, particularly if you have a slice of lemon or, shudder, ice cubes (if you drink it you may not make it to dessert);
- pets;
- children (never ever send your kids to a pre-school, a K-12 school or the pediatrician, esp. if their classmates have pets);
- drinking fountains;
- public restrooms (an article in the PI a few days ago mentioned that something like 80% of changing tables have measurable amounts of cocaine on them)
- pretty much anything that can be touched or breathed on by more than one person.

oh, yeah, and I second what CJB said in post 4. And I pretty much don't understand anything kootchman said.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

First. e coli is more virulent today. Meat processing involves massive amounts of antibiotics injected, and laced in feeds. E coli is a disease of congestion and frequency of exposure. In meat plants that can process 1000 tons a day, a small contaminant can be a massive recall. E coli is evolving to live amongst us in the face of antibiotics, hand cleansers etc. You may be fine with it. But young children as you readily point out are little incubators..they bring home all kinds of crap from school... precisely because they have an underdeveloped immune system. Their first e coli attack could be their last. Add immuno compromised, diabetics, AIDS, hepatitis and the aged and you are putting unacceptable number of people at risk. I didn't think you would metro... that's why you vote for these things. So the bag industry defends their record of a less polluting, more sanitary. product? Beats a teeny weenie little cabal of rabid dog eco stooges with their little "progressive: meet ups to defy the will of the people behind the scenes with our city council. People like metrognome are typical... they choose not to understand a lot.. and metro. ask any pregnant women..how many DO avoid cats during pregnancy to minimize exposure to taxoplasmosis...quite a few. Water from restaurants treated by UV, chlorine, and ozone processes is not the same as raw organ secretions and blood product from an IBP meat processing plant with cattle from a confined feedlot. And my dear JoB IT WAS a tax initiative.. a very clear message was they wanted to screw us with a bag tax..they just happened to find a way to make it sound "progressive"...and used plastic bags as the medium. Proof of that? Easy.... they sure didn't put a plastic ban on the ballot again did they? With or without tax... but you know what every voter was thinking when they turned it down? You are pissed at the bag industry because they also pointed out your gospel had flaws .. one being junk science....and the people chose them as more credible. Everytime I start to question the ethics of lobby and PACs .... then I remember.. ya gotta have that counter balance and alternate sources of information and access...cause there is no truth like the truth of a believer...right?We voted the initiative down... that was the expressed will of the people...cheap politics..

Posted 5 months ago #
keetz4
Member Profile

Its not just about plastic bags. Its about the lousy governance we are getting from the mayor and council. Neither has ever seen a budget increase they didn't love:

After years of raising water rates, they raised the rate again by 18% this past January. Then they turned around in October and raised the rate one more time by 33% to be implemented over the next two years.....a 51% increase in less than a year. When I sent emails to every councilmember and the mayor requesting an explanation only the mayor and two councilmembers bothered to respond. Shortly after they approved the 33% increase, we learned that City Light is poorly run and inefficient. I didn't need a study to know that......and neither did the council and mayor.

This past year, the King and Seattle councils each raised car tab fees by $20 for a grand total of $40. So what does the mayor do.......he proposed raising the same car tab fee by an additional $60 for unspecified purposes. The mayor apparently thinks we all are part of the 1%.

This past year the mayor and city council raised parking fees throughout the city by a significant amount amidst considerable uproar. These higher fees are hurting small businesses. Do the mayor and council care? Apparently not.

This past year the mayor and council tried to extend a hotel tax that had been set up to pay off certain bonds even though the bonds had finally been paid off. Fortunately, that effort at more taxation was stopped.

Excuse me but this is not responsible management of the city......not by any standard. And Seattle has some serious problems.......like downtown crime, an unemployment rate of 8%, a sizable homeless population, deteriorating infrastructure. These issues need to be addressed sooner rather than later.

So yeah, in a perfect world, charging money for plastic bags, which is still one more tax on the Seattle consumer, may be a great idea. But for me, its just one more example of how this council and mayor like to pander to its eco-friendly constituents by putting in another bike lane or discouraging plastic bag usage.............while never dealing with the real issues, or doing any of the heavy lifting of city government. And its not like Seattle residents don't already diligently recycle plastic bags.

Frankly, I don't like getting pandered to.........so for that reason I will be signing the petition opposing the plastic bag tax. And then, I will be working to constructively unseat the mayor and councilmembers. Neither have shown they have the ability to run a great city and don't deserve to be in their current positions.

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

agree keetz4 and kootchman

Posted 5 months ago #
munchkin22
Member Profile

Diane: We second your agree to keetz4 and kootchman. Are you sure you're a white liberal?

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

thank you munchkin22 for best laugh of the day; I needed that
~
yep, it's true

Posted 5 months ago #
NFiorentini
Member Profile

1. A "tax" is money that goes to the government. This five-cent fee goes to the merchant for the additional costs incurred by having to purchase, stock, and mess with paper bags. Therefore, calling this fee a "tax" is not accurate.

2. People should research what plastics are capable of out in nature. I recommend starting with a Google Image Search of "plastic bags". For me, it was difficult to look at pictures of birds and turtles that had swallowed these bags and to *NOT* want to voluntarily change how I shop. I had never used canvas bags until about three years ago and the transition has been super-easy.

3. People should also study the issue and perhaps talk to biologists, especially marine biologists, affiliated with our local colleges and universities. These are people who actually know first-hand what they are talking about, unlike many of the folks here.

Truth and correct information doesn't always come from those who shout the loudest, have the niftiest soundbites, or who say things in which we already agree. With this issue and many others, truth is most likely to come from the researchers and scientists who have made it their life's work to investigate nature.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Obama plays those semantics. At first Obamacare wasn't a tax.. remember that? Ah.. then to fortify their argument that Obamacare was a "commerce clause" issue.. it became a tax...paid to private insurance companies. First it was now it isn;t. The left does these things. Nfiorenti.. EXACTLY... we live a a google nation. Fact.. paper pulping is more damaging to the natural environment.. consume more resources, .. it's all documented. People do "study" these issues... some more so than to google as the extent of their research. All that aside... the decision was made.. by majority vote to not ban plastic and not have a bag tax... there are surprise , surprise conflicting intepretations of the science.. A tax is anything a government forces you you to pay for. Anything they will use the powers of police to enforce .. so.... is it a tax? This wasn't to reimburse the merchants ... please don't be so naive... it's a payoff to the merchants, to charge for what they do not now charge us.. to be quiet and not contribute to the repeal effort. It's more of the same.. crony capitalism... makes no economic sense.. GM, Solyndra, bank bailouts, etc... it it taxing us to make payoffs to silence a polticial opponent... fools.

Posted 5 months ago #
keetz4
Member Profile

Full disclosure: I am a white liberal. You don't have to be a conservative to be disgusted by poor governance and unnecessary taxation.

To NFiorentini, look up the definition of a tax......the recipient of a tax does not have to be the gov't. And even if that were true, the charge for the bag as stipulated by the new law does act as a tax to the consumer.

Posted 5 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

so once again the conversation focuses on taxes and spending, not on the plastic bags.

do you see a pattern here?

I do.

Posted 5 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

talking about bags...want to avoid that bag fee? Take your own bags...how hard is that? Come on, people, this is not rocket science here. You all are acting like someone is threatening your life. It's 5 cents. If left up to voters every time, the people in this country would pay for nothing, but expect everything. Take your own bags...wash them periodically. It's not difficult.

Posted 5 months ago #
metrognome
Member Profile

for y'all who are pushing the germ issue ... where do you think those germs come from? Wait for it ... from the items you are buying at the store, from the checkout counter, etc. Those same germs are on the food that gets bagged in plastic.

And, plastic bags aren't free; not to the grocer and not to you, since the store adds their cost to the overhead that gets added to everything you buy. You are already paying for those 'free' bags, they just aren't itemized on your bill. The Morgan Thriftway refunds you .04cents for each bag you bring, so 5cents sounds about right. If they continue that practice, I end up making money.

keetz -- I did look up the definition of 'tax'; you should take your own advice, as every definition I found said that a tax is paid to a government.

JoB -- that's a common neo-conservative propaganda technique; divert the conversation to something marginally related and scream it at the top of your voice until it's the only thing people hear (to wit, Rush Limbaugh.) Oh, and you have to use the kind of language that disguises what you actually mean. A neo-con would never refer to a 'tax' when proposing it; it would be 'revenue enhancement'; it is only a 'tax' when liberals propose it. Neo-conservatives are afraid to discuss the actual issues.

Posted 5 months ago #
JoB
Member Profile

I can understand the argument that city hall has gone too far...
I can understand the desire not to be further taxed when you see no benefit to the taxation...

but the bag ban is clearly not a tax...

what i don't hear from those who would fight to the death for their plastic bags:

how they would keep them out of the sound..
did you know that every water sample taken from the sound recently contained minute bits of plastic?

or how they would keep them from jamming the recycling machines

if everyone actually used their plastic bags responsibly,
then perhaps this would be a different conversation..
but they don't.

the "free" in those plastic bags in nothing more than an illusion...
we pay for them at the grocery
we pay for them in increased recycling costs
and we pay for them environmentally

aside from the marine animal loss due to the ingestion of plastic bags...
there is the floating island of plastic junk that threatens to overtake our oceans..

in this case,
out of sight is not out of mind.

is it perhaps the personal responsibility of bringing and maintaining our own shopping bags that is the real problem here?

Posted 5 months ago #
Diane
Member Profile

talk about wasteful one time use: “Wrapping paper and holiday cards from the UK could generate enough biofuel to send a bus to the moon and back 20 times!" http://su.pr/89VMBW
by: Inhabitat

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Sure JoB nothing is free... my god,, from a democrat no less!

the "free" in those plastic bags in nothing more than an illusion...
we pay for them at the grocery
we pay for them in increased recycling costs
and we pay for them environmentally"

That is true,,, bit we pay MORE for paper, They COST MORE to recycle And WM dumps it all in landfills, paper an plastic... AND uncontested by anyone is paper uses more energy and natural resources than plastic.... and who the hell carries reuseable, bags everywhere they go? No one.

A tax on the poor
An increased environmental stress
higher natural resource untilization
least sanitary option

that about sum it up?

Posted 5 months ago #
JanS
Member Profile

excuse me, but some of us carry reusable bags with us all the time. they fold up into little packets...and women carry them in their purses. Men are at a disadvantage, but don't make generalized statements, thank you very much..:)

Posted 5 months ago #
oddreality
Member Profile

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using electricity.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using coffee.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using medications.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using disposable diapers.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using plastic toys.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using rubber soled shoes.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using the shower.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using tires.

The environment is more important than my individual choice about using electronics.

Etc....
Where does it stop??

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Well I don't... as a friend of mine so astutely said... they are the condoms of left... carry em wether you are neeed to use em or not... it was funny. Anytime, any government agency, by force of law takes money out of my pocket ... it's a tax.

tax
noun
1.
a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services, levied upon incomes, property, sales, etc.
2.
a burdensome charge, obligation, duty, or demand.

There ya go... Merriam Webster See JoB... and the tax thread that got you in an uproar was a challenge to the comment "it;s not a tax" ... au contraire' .. it is all that.

JoB you are rabidly committed to the notion that the last bag ban turned down by the voters was because it was a tax. Undeniably that was a portion of the measure... as it is part of this one... but reviewing the threads... there is far more wrtten about the junk science, the energy costs, and the sanitation.. and inconvenience. .. this is soooo funny...like if you keep denying it's a tax, magically it won't be one. It is.

Posted 5 months ago #
oddreality
Member Profile

I am a woman and I will not carry those icky things in my purse thank you..Not to mention I need at least a dozen per trip as I do all my shopping at once to save gas.Please do not make those same generalizations you accuse Kootchman of using.Thank you very much.

Posted 5 months ago #
kootchman
Member Profile

Jan won't address the issues in a thread... she will ever so carefully glean over a post to find anything she can do to discredit anyone who is not a doctrinaire thnkalike..never a muse about does the counter arguement have some validity. nooooo, that is not Janesque...get used to it.... now, my question is.. Jan.. when or if you become immuno supressed if you aren't now ... and you get an e coli infection...will you assume this city ordnance places an avoidable, and unreasonable risk on your shoulders? e coli is of particular threat to kidneys.... pyelonephritis is an e coli infection of the kidneys and the most common source of kidney infections and scarring.

Posted 5 months ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply »

You must log in to post.

All contents copyright 2012, A Drink of Water and a Story Interactive. Here's how to contact us.
No photo reuse without permission.
Entries and comments feeds. ^Top^