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20-cent bag fee will not take effect Jan 1

Started 3 years ago by Diane
Latest reply from beachdrivegirl

Diane
Member Profile

Seattle grocery-bag fee to go to citizen vote
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008181474_webbagfee15m.html
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Yay!!!

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
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Yeah! Best news I have heard all day!

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
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did you ever wonder why the grocery council paid to get the signatures to put it to a vote?

it isn't the administrative bother.. they add new products to their stores all of the time.

maybe it's that they figured out you might not be doing so much impulse shopping if you were thinking about what would fit in your bags.

in the meantime, i continue to stop to pick up plastic bags in West Seattle streets to end the litter problem that doesn't exist. I collect about 10 a week on average.

i wonder how many of them blow into the sound and endanger sea life?

Posted 3 years ago #
LBG
Member Profile

Yes...Jo B one would wonder. Then again, maybe the sea life have actually put them to good use 20,000 leagues under the sea.

Or maybe...just maybe...they thought government shouldn't be regulating plastic bag usage.

Deep thoughts by Jack Handy.

Posted 3 years ago #
FullTilt
Member Profile

I think it is funny that the major backer of this is the plastic industry. Well not funny really, but sad. Really, it is that hard to take your own bag to the store? You can spend hundreds extra a year buying organic food, but carting along a bag or two is really that hard. It is OK for the state to tell me that I have to buy liquor at their stores, only smoke 25 feet from a building, wear a seat belt in a car, a helmet when I ride a bicycle, no trans fat when I cook, and no teenagers listening to music in the vicinity of adults, but carrying a bag makes us a nanny state? Are your serious?!?! Are you even listening to yourselves? People in Seattle totally fell prey to the marketing of the plastic industry, and are cheering about it. Hell yeah they don't want you to pay for a bag. That is their bread and butter.

The point is that it is a waste of recourses to get new bags ever time you shop. Don't even give that argument that it should be the shop owners choice. you didn't give that to booze or cigarettes, so it is not going to cut it for your precious bags either. Jesus Christ, grow up and take a modicum of responsibility for your actions. Even if it looks like it, those bags don't grow on trees. It is bad enough that we are competing with each other for oil to put in our cars, we do not need to fight each other over plastic bags.

Posted 3 years ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

JoB, I thought about you yesterday because while driving east on Genessee, I counted three bags blowing in the street. It struck me because I don't usually see them, but thought about you picking them up on walks. Then I came upon what I'm sure was the culprit. I didn't think to check if it was a recycling or garbage truck (our neighborhood had both pick-ups yesterday), but the crew was working their way down the street. Bag tax or no, and I know they are always in a hurry, I hope they are employing best pracices for keeping control of the bags that aren't simply discarded on the side of the road.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

LBG..

if the government doesn't regulate the plastic bag industry and somehow keep them out of the sound, how are we going to protect one of our most valuable resources?

isn't that what government is for.. protecting infrastructure? The greatest infrastructure this nation has is it's natural resources.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

GenHillOne...

i am stopping to pick them up when i am out and about in the car...

I never saw them much until i decided to stop and pick them up.. now i see more than i can safely stop to pick up.

the garbage company has already told us that loose plastic bags in the trash or recycling are a big problem.. they jam the machines and apparently they float away easily too...

All anyone has to do to stop that is stuff plastic bags inside one plastic bag and tie the top.

if people were willing to make that kind of effort..

we wouldn't need a bag tax.

Posted 3 years ago #
GenHillOne
Member Profile

Oh darn, now I feel guilty...you've set the bar! I'll have to pull over next time and get them. It wasn't like I was on the bridge or anything. I do stuff and tie when I recycle though - isn't hard, so agreed that it would be nice if everyone did.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

GenHillOne...

i probably have more time when i am out doing errands than you:)

i don't know why i decided one day that i would just start stopping to pick them up. maybe it was when beachdrivegirl told me they weren't a litter problem here and i decided to show her.. yup, i can be that petty.

it's a habit now... and i think it got to be one before i told her how many i was finding. So i really should thank her.

the real hero is the person who walks along the hiway and picks them up... they pick up far more in one walk than i do in a couple of weeks... even though we have work details out cleaning the hiways.

Posted 3 years ago #
ellenater
Member Profile

Full Tilt, I agree 100%. And I often forget my bags...but would not mind paying. I think there is some allure in the fresh new bag for people. At least there is in clothes shopping. Maybe that's just for teenagers but I thing the bags can be like trophies sometimes...

As far as trash goes, i've been picking it up at Lincoln Park lately. I love that place so much and it does feel good to get rid of it. I have found a few things on the beach that would be really bad for the sea creatures. Makes me happy to know that everyone else does it too!

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

The principal of the matter for me is that I did not get to vote on this. And it is not solving any issue at all. Why are they taxing paper bags? why are they not taxing bags used at a department store? And what about the plastic produce bag that i pick up??? This is not a real solution.

Posted 3 years ago #
FullTilt
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We don't need to vote on everything. That is why we elect people, to make policies and decisions. This was not going to be a life altering ruling. The big waste of tax dollars is going to be putting this on a ballot.

Posted 3 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

FT, thank you for explaining representative democracy. I have never lived in a place where people could be so easily stirred up by being told, "YOU didn't get to VOTE on it." Face it people, once again, you've been conned by an industry into a position that will only help them. When will we learn?

Posted 3 years ago #
RS
Member Profile

Thank you, FullTilt!! My sentiments exactly. As a recent transplant, I find the "we have to vote on everything" mentality a little bizarre. That's WHY I pay attention and vote in the elections- so that good people get into office and make good choices. If they do something really asinine, we recall them or vote them out of office in the next election. The bag tax whining doesn't make sense to me, even the argument that there are other things the city could spend their money on trying to fix. That's true on first glance, but the city's resources are always going to be fungible and there's always going to be something better they *could* be doing. Seems like a path to complete inaction and paralyzed government to me!

Posted 3 years ago #
JenV
Member Profile

I blame that horse's you know what Tim Eyman for the current "we get to vote on everything" thinking.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
Member Profile

FullTilt you beat me to it, I had it half typed and had to go to a meeting. I hate having to vote for judges, like I know which is most qualified.

And Jen you are right on Eyman is a horses arse, making money off of people's greed and gutting our infrastructure.

Posted 3 years ago #
Sue
Member Profile

Thanks, FullTilt - I agree with you on this one. I've been keeping track of my own bag consumption. I haven't taken a bag of any kind from any store for at least 3 months now, and even before that for the past year I've probably taken less than a dozen bags from a store. It's really not that hard. I was out at the North Bend outlets this weekend and people were surprised that we had our own bags and kept remarking on it as we pulled them out. They're not just for groceries.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

The other examples cited protect public health or safety. ie, seatbelts, helmets. You can not dispute the facts showing these measures save lives. It is the job of government to protect the welfare of it's citizens.

I think we should use our own bags. It's a good idea. It would reduce trash. It would help the environment. We know they never biodegrade. It could possibly protect sea life. All noble ideals.

I don't think it should be mandatory without a vote. It does not fall under a public safety umbrella. And all these good intentions aside, if we really cared about the environment, we'd ban cars, not bags.

Yes, you have to start somewhere. That's where a vote comes in. It is an opinion about what the priority should be. I'd rather see hard un-recyclable plastic packaging banned way before a product which can be properly recycled, if we chose to.

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

Thank you JT! You have hit everything right on... i think sometimes people just like an "idea" b/c it makes them feel important... and they dont think about better ideas out there.

Posted 3 years ago #
Diane
Member Profile

Excellent points JT; totally agree; thanks for the input
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Fantastic article today re the biggest waste producer
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We recycle cans and bottles, why not buildings?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008182437_peterop16.html
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plastic bags are but a drip in the vast waste bucket, and a great distraction from the biggest culprits of preventable waste that ends up in landfills; developers who dump construction and demolition debris
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why not penalize developers for dumping all that waste
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and provide incentives for developers that reuse, recycle demolition and building waste
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that would make a HUGE difference

Posted 3 years ago #
walfredo
Member Profile

I don't think its a victory for plastic bags, as much as it is for individual freedoms, taxation with representation. I don't see what harm a vote could be, if this really is the will of the people.

It also hopefully would open up a broader discussion of whether this fixes any of the problems we face with packaging and waste, and what actual solutions might exist to deal with them.

Posted 3 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

We have taxation with representation; we elect people who vote on things. If we don't like what they do, we can run against them, vote them out, or even recall them. (There's a serious attempt in California to recall Schwatzenegger -- who beat the Democrat before him, who was recalled.)

Maybe the City Council blew this one -- maybe they didn't. The question is, what is the affect of voting (or revoting) on every decision we disagree with? What do we trust our representatives with? If the answer is pretty much nothing, why would anyone good ever run?

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

Dianne,

i think it's a great idea to recycle everything..

and i think the idea of a recycling tax on dumping recyclable construction waste is a great idea... because it is obvious that the cash benefits of gleaning by those who are wiling to remove recyclable construction materials have not outweighed the hassle yet.

Beachdrivegirl..

no, a 20 cent fee for plastic bags won't solve the recycling problem with plastic and paper bags... but it sure would make an impact.

Just taking about it has already made an impact. There is now a code on the produce sheet of older self serve cashier stands that allows you to weigh your bag and use it at checkout. That wasn't there prior to the pending imposition of a bag fee.

JT...

Which of the pollution regulations have we voted on? Among other things, plastic bags migrating into the ocean are a pollution issue where they impact wildlife

and a garbage issue where they don't. We have a lovely garbage dump in the middle of the Pacific Ocean that someone is going to have to clean up... I guess that's us when it migrates to our shores.

did i miss the vote on garbage collection? plastic bags end up as a garbage problem.... so ubiquitous that it isn't even noticed unless an individual makes a pledge to pick them up and begins to notice them.

Will we vote for increasing garbage collection on our city streets and hiways and beaches to alleviate the problem?

personal comment...

I really don't understand the opposition here. The best i can come up with is a very juvenille..

You can't make me!

I don't know what the election on this will cost, but my guess is that whatever it's cost, that money would have gone a long way towards providing public services.

I, for one, am not happy about being forced to absorb the costs for what should have been a no brainer for citizens who profess to be concerned about their environment.. or even citizens who don't want their garbage bills increasing..

This was a fee that should have been every independent libertarians dream come true.. you get to decide whether or not you pay and make your own choices accordingly.

Instead, the grocery and plastic industries spent a lot of money making sure the rest of us will spend a lot of money that will produce absolutely nothing.

Now.. is that what you call a solution?

Posted 3 years ago #
Diane
Member Profile

Fortunately part of our democratic process is ALSO the option to go directly to the people for a vote on the issue when/if the folks we voted into office fail us; if the majority did not care about this, they would not have gotten enough signatures
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(i.e., this is exactly what we had to do to get the smoke-free law passed; our city, county, state elected officials continually failed us so we had to go directly to the people; if it were not for the initiative process, we would probably still have stinky, smoky public places)
~
and the city council members who passed this ridiculous law, who I voted for, will NOT be getting my vote next time; the one stand-out maverick, Jan Drago, will for sure get my vote

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

What is really a waste, is the government's continual swatting at flies to look busy, while there are so many huge elephants (Diane's article) in the room.

Call me juvenile if you like, but sooner or later we need to get our noses out of the pet peeve issues and create some substantial change.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

Are plastic bags getting a bad rap?

http://www.nashvillewrapscommunity.com/blog/?p=46

The comparison facts from a company that sells both paper and plastic.

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

Getting enough signatures for a vote on any issue does not posit that a majority care about that issue. If so, every initiative/referendum would have passed.

Posted 3 years ago #
Zenguy
Member Profile

Here is a Salon article on the true cost (not just monetarily) of plastic and paper bags.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/08/10/plastic_bags/index1.html

Posted 3 years ago #
Diane
Member Profile

re: flowerpetal; “Getting enough signatures for a vote on any issue does not posit that a majority care about that issue. If so, every initiative/referendum would have passed.”
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true, but I do think most care
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and we will find out when everyone gets to vote on this next Aug, included on the primary ballot
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unless the City Council makes another blunder and calls for a special election earlier, which would be very costly

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

The crazy thing is... is that they got enough signztures in a weeks time; when they thought @ first it would take a month or more.... i think it really shows what the majority of the city of seattle's position is on the issue.

Posted 3 years ago #
RainyDay1235
Member Profile

Sorry, but I'm guessing the paid petition takers probably did not state the full breakdown of where the funds will go, or the reason why this is needing a solution. "Here - sign this or else they will charge you what was once free!"

In that instance, maybe it is better it's going to a vote. I just think this is all so silly. Why should bags be free anyway? Bringing your own bags is so easy. Plastic bags are bad for the environment. What else matters?

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

i think you are right, that it will be an uphill battle to get people to pay for the plastic bags they use...

especially when it is emotionally called a tax...

they think they are getting something for nothing now... after all every cost associated with those free bags is hidden.

But it won't be for long if it fails.

i don't think i am going to enjoy listening to those same people whine when their garbage bill goes up if it doesn't pass... because the bill for picking up and recycling those bags will have to be paid one way or another.

i really am not going to enjoy saying "I told you so" as i am writing the check for the fees i could have easily avoided paying.

I am not going to enjoy listening to those same people whine about the litter lining our streets and hiways.. or the litter on the beach either...

And i am no longer going to pick up someone else's mess if the fee doesn't pass.

the signature gatherers didn't get signatures opposing the bag fee.. they got signatures calling for a vote on the bag tax.

In fact, if you said no, they pursued you explaining that all it would do is bring the policy to a public vote.

I saw several people buy that and sign.

as for those who oppose the bag fee here...

i am still waiting for one of you who oppose this fee on this forum to come up with anything that looks like even a partial solution to the problem...

I know..

you can't make me.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

"I am no longer going to pick up someone else's mess if the fee doesn't pass"

To punish those who disagree with you, the oceans pay the price? Is this about the environment or being right? I'm bothered by all of the my way or the highway people. What happened to the intelligent conversation supposedly desired?

I'd like to explore the biodegradable bag options, myself. It seems the extra cost to supply those would be about the same as the suggested fee, if the grocer kept all of the revenue and left the city out of it. Think of the advertising benefits to retailers who tout their "greenness".

We seem to have conflicting information from the experts in the field, as well. Maybe we could hear more about that. Or we could keep shaming people with the "you can't make me" mantra.

Posted 3 years ago #
JimmyG
Member Profile

Quick--someone call the Mayor!

I think I'll go to the park and take my gun along in a plastic bag.

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JT..

one person can only do so much and i already do far more than my fair share.

If citizens like me don't pick them up... then the city will have to pay someone to pick them up..

and paying more to deal with plastic bags will get everyone's attention.

besides.. if you agree they are a problem for marine life... why aren't you in favor of a solution that would at least decrease the number of bags floating around?

so.. are you going to propose to the mayor that the city require groceries to use bio-degradable bags?

because that is what i would take to exceed the impact the bag fee would have had.

Posted 3 years ago #
charlabob
Member Profile

The paid signature gatherers said anything that would get them a signature. I experimented with asking off-the-wall questions and they agreed with everything. (I still didn't sign.)

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

JoB, I never said whether I was against the fee. I never said I don't use my own bags (I do). I never said I wasn't concerned about the environment.

What I did say, is I'm against people who make decisions and that's it. I'm the decider. I've decided. "You're either with us, or against us." And to question that, you're called whiners, juvenile, and callous toward the environment.

This is a convenient perspective when it concerns an issue you agree with.

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall any kind of community input or educational symposium and I'd like to know more. Maybe I will propose biodegradable bags to the city council. Is it something they considered? Is it possible? If we, as taxpayers/consumers, are going to be paying for it one way or another, what are the options?

I'm simply participating in a forum discussion. No more, no less, and no need to try and shut me down.

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

JT, I trust that no one on this blog would shut you down or even try to. Unless it is WSB itself but there is no reason for that.
Please can we can we put the mayor in a different perspective? True, he favors the measure but it is Richard Conlin's baby and voted on by all but one of the council members. And I'm not even sure why I'm so sensitive about the mayor getting fingered except that it doesn't seem accurate to me.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

flowerpetal, my mistake. I changed it to city council on the one comment I could still edit.

And my definition of being shut down are comments like...the only reason someone could disagree is because they are juvenile and think to themselves "you can't make me".

Posted 3 years ago #
mickeymouse
Member Profile

Hey, do away with the grocery store plastic bags when they compost at resutrants, biug institutions like hospitals and downtow sky scrapers. I be t the Seattle city government offices have plastic bags lining thier gargage can by the hundreds every day!!
It needs to be equitable across the board and not a burden on folks who need some plastic and can't be taking reusable where ever they go.
Greg Nickles, lets see your office and home!

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JT...

i didn't try to shut you down.. i said that the reasons given on this blog mostly come down to simply not wanting to be told what to do.

The city council passed a policy.

The plastic industry and the grocery council decided to spend big bucks to sway public opinion and pay signature gatherers to gain enough signatures to force a public vote.. which the public.. not the plastic industry and the grocery council will pay for.

The public will also pay for the cost of an education program while the plastic industry and the grocers council outbids them industry funded studies and misleading ads.

If it does not pass, the public, not the plastic industry or the grocery council, will absorb the cost of collection and recycling of plastic bags.

Regardless of how it turns out, this vote is going to cost a lot of public money that could have been used for public services...

and just what will we get for that money?

Any of the alternatives so far suggested could have been implemented by local grocers at any time...

yet until the fee was proposed, you couldn't even easily use your own bag at automatic checkout stands and were as often harassed by grocery clerks as applauded for bringing your own bags.

Stores could have instituted collection sites for used plastic bags as they do in Oregon. They could have changed to biodegradable bags.

If you are waiting for them to do so, you will wait a long time. The plastic collection sites didn't appear in Oregon stores by magic, but by public policy.

it will take public policy or a voted law to create change.

mickeymouse,

yes, the city government offices could do more..

as could we all.

biodegradable plastic bags are available to line our waste cans and pick up our dog poo.. and although most of what is currently available takes a very long time to compost, they will eventually do so... as our current plastic won't.

every time someone picks up their animal's waste, they create a plastic wrapped turd for our landfills that will still exist for centuries... same with your carefully bagged trash if those bags aren't emptied.

And although the plastic won't break down, it appears that it will leach chemicals into our ground water... chemicals thought to contribute to many metabolic disorders that are becoming far more prevalent.

as long as cheaper plastic alternatives are available , people will choose them over biodegradable bags..

and the cost of biodegradable bags won't come down until the demand goes up.

so tell me, how do you make that happen without policies or laws?

It easier to criticize than it is to come up with viable solutions.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

Interesting website on the subject. Note this is NOT the same organization as stop the Seattle bag tax. This is a non-profit that focuses on economics and public policy. A very reasoned argument against the bag fee (Letter to Seattle City Council), as well as information from other states and countries that have addressed this issue.

Northwest Economic Policy Seminar

http://www.seattlebagtax.org/index.html

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

JT,

I had found that site myself JT back when I was looking into the issue. I was quite amazed and what I learned from the site all by having an *open* mind on an issue I was interested in.

"simply not wanting to be told what to do." - For me that is not the issue. For me the issue is that we are not really fixing any problem. They have created a bandaid to make people feel like they are doing something great for the environment when in fact we arent really addressing any issue at all.

And yes, Mickeymouse, I would love to see the city's bill on all the nonbiodegradable garbage bags i see being used in our public parks and buildings garbage cans. Seems that might be a better issue to addresss than the plastic bags @ a grocery store. Wouldnt that be a thought to be leading by example...

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

Can we set the record straight on the City and the use of plastic garbage bags in City buildings? It seems that assumptions are being made. I work in a City building. Plastic liners are not replaced daily, unless necessary i.e. in lunch rooms. Individual wastebaskets are dumped into one larger container. Every floor has glass, plastic, and aluminum recycle containers. Of course there is also paper recycling and reduction (City Departments are reaching a 30% paper reduction goal set in 2004).
Lastly, beginning in 2009, the City will no longer allow the use of City dollars for the purchase of water in plastic bottles (with a very few exceptions).

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

But there are hundreds of parks in the city. And for example, I see park employees empty garbage cans @ Emma Schmitz park @ least twice a week. There are a minimum of four garbage cans there. That is 8 garbage bags a week @ one park!! Over four bags a year @ one park!! There are hundredes of parks in Seattle ... so that is easily over 4000 bags a year in our city parks alone...this are not biodegradable bags!!!

Posted 3 years ago #
flowerpetal
Member Profile

Have you queried the parks department about this? Do you know that the bags aren't biodegradeable? Do you have an alternative solution for removing large amounts of garbage from these containers in a safe and cost effective way?

Posted 3 years ago #
JoB
Member Profile

JT..

Beachdrivegirl posted that site in the other thread.. and the argument they make is equally weak now.

They site plastic industry studies as their sources.. and in one case the source was the personal observations of one of the writers. It is a stretch to call their paper a study. It's really more of a position paper.

beyond that, did you notice that their survey didn't ask whether people would rather pay a bag fee or whether they would rather have the increased garbage fees the bag fee would have alleviated?

nope. guess they found that irrelevant.

Maybe not so unbiased after all...

Posted 3 years ago #
beachdrivegirl
Member Profile

What the survey did address though was whether or not people wanted to vote for the tax? Rather than have something mandated. We do live in a Democratic society & I believe that the Democratic way is to vote.

Posted 3 years ago #
Anonymous
Member Profile

So, plastic bags have become thinner and more degradable than ever. They are both recyclable and re-usable. The vast majority of consumers will be buying thicker less degradable bags to replace these.

I have purchased the re-usable bags at both costco and trader joe's. Non-degradable plastic. I have purchased bags at PCC and Met market. I even have some really cool handmade one's I received as gifts. I'm sure I'll purchase some safeway one's soon too. Because no matter how well meaning we all are, they get forgotten in the house or I wasn't planning on stopping at the store. How green is it to buy a new bag every time I shop? How many resources go into making these bags?

The position keeps changing from being green, to saving marine life, to not paying more for your garbage bill. Has Rabanco even said they would raise rates if we don't vote for this fee that goes to the city, not them, in the first place? I would guess gas prices for their trucks would be behind any rate change.

I was on the fence before, but the more condescending the greenies become, the more I research and see that this is another feel good about ourselves measure that has little to no real world effect.

BTW, the survey you call biased was performed by Seattle Public Utilities, not the NEPS. And if you bothered to read some of the references and sources, you would see that their position paper is based on the work of others (WA State recycling industry, for one). Their function has just been to gather the information, not create it.

Posted 3 years ago #

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