all this is brought to you by the same people who brought you Newt...

second verse .......

"The 10 planks of the Contract From America — heavy on fiscal restraint and limited government, light on social issues"

fiscal restraint, huh....

http://www.benzinga.com/press-releases/b223180/sen-thad-cochran-wins-award-in-cagw%E2%80%99s-2010-pig-book

anyone remember how Newt's contract with America worked out?

Soemtimes there is a lot to be learned from history.

Mighty vague.
And I would say the majority of Americans want MORE health-care reform.
Let's restore corporate taxes, remove loopholes, make the rich pay for their much heavier use of the commons.

from JanS
"and then there's this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15contract.html?src=un&feedurl=http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/politics/index.jsonp "

I think the majority of americans would agree with items 1-10

Some defended being on Social Security while fighting big government by saying that since they had paid into the system, they deserved the benefits.
Others could not explain the contradiction.
“That’s a conundrum, isn’t it?” asked Jodine White, 62, of Rocklin, Calif. “I don’t know what to say. Maybe I don’t want smaller government. I guess I want smaller government and my Social Security.” She added, “I didn’t look at it from the perspective of losing things I need. I think I’ve changed my mind.”
--
Light (or enlightenment) is the best disinfectant.

Has anyone received the $100,000 by providing proof that racial slurs were actually used that day? That's a lot of coin to leave on the table - lots of cameras and media there. Very surprising.

Guilty until proven innocent, I guess.

and then there's this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15contract.html?src=un&feedurl=http://json8.nytimes.com/pages/politics/index.jsonp

who are the tea baggers?

interesting poll results

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html

"I was part of that progressive movement who sent more faxes and emails and petitions and calls to our elected officials demanding a public option than they had ever received in such a short period with little more than a mention on network news.

We were persistent.. we were numerous.. we had momentum. So why were we not noticed.. even by our own party... while a bunch of racist bigoted morons carrying signs and dripping spittle in fury get all the attention?"

Unfortunately racist sign waivers with inflammatory catch phrases designed to illcit fear garner much more media attention than well-meaning emails and letters from people that have the ability to see the big picture.

HMCRich..

the problem with writing the ugly faces of the tea bagger party off as a disgruntled minority is that this disgruntled minority is not only hogging the lion's share of the limelight but driving current Republican political strategy.

Last night i watched a nightline special on the Obama presidency... and even after the fact.. after the passage of the health care bill.. the tea bagger movement got a ton of attention and the progressive movement to include the public option got none... not even a mention... and Frontline is considered a fairly liberal program.

I was part of that progressive movement who sent more faxes and emails and petitions and calls to our elected officials demanding a public option than they had ever received in such a short period with little more than a mention on network news.

We were persistent.. we were numerous.. we had momentum. So why were we not noticed.. even by our own party... while a bunch of racist bigoted morons carrying signs and dripping spittle in fury get all the attention?

This disgruntled minority is driving Republican policy right now... they have empowered the far right of the Republican party to put pressure on all Republicans for complete non-cooperation with the democratic process.

They are gambling that they can win that mid-term election and take the process back now that the financial crisis is no longer the republican hot potato it once was... and to that end they did their best to shut down the government entirely to make the president look bad.

And you wonder what the truth is?

I will tell you this... i was so ticked at my party for their complete cave to the center.. so ticked that we are likely to replace a left leaning supreme court judge with a centrist that will tip the court even further to the right.. so ticked that my party didn't bother to even acknowledge the liberal side of it's constituency... that i was going to opt out of the political process at mid-term.. take my cash.. my voice and my vote and go home.. until i watched that Nightline program last night.

The current administration that you paint as one step shy of socialism has failed it's base by governing for political effect... by being about as far from liberal as it can get... and yet... they are a huge improvement over the alternative.. the face of the tea bagger spewing spittle in rage.

You had best be careful what you ask for because we may not be enough to stop you from getting your way... and you too will have to live with the tea bagger mentality.. that bully mentality that says that anything you can take is yours by right... and that might makes right.

That face of rage is driving your party and they are going to be pretty difficult to put back in the box Fox news took them out of.

You had better hope that a lot more democrats just like me get really ticked off at the idea of another republican majority...

because right now they are little more than boys behaving badly... political bullies grabbing more than their fair of the American Pie... and right now we are all that stands between you and them.

The only pockets left in America to raid are those of the middle class that has not yet gone under in the last financial crisis.

if you win.. you might as well grab your ankles and assume the position.

Waterworld. Thanks for posting. I have been away for a bit. I generally do not trust or like the Patriot Act. I agree with you on the dilution of our rights by our lawmakers.

Metrognome. I composed an email to Paul Ryan but couldn't send it due to the fact they only want emails from their district. I will call one of these days to ask about the numbers. I also wish to answer you last query from a "rational conservative" view. But I cannot at the moment. I am currently irrational. Danger Will Robinson.

Thanks for the links.

Oh Charla, you are fun. I wonder if someone like James Carville decided to start hammering the liberal movement and was a senior fellow at a left leaning think tank would he be retained or let go? Honestly, I don't really care. Kantor's team did lose the past few elections, but at midterms when a presidents approval rating is under 50% (Obama is now down to 45%) usually the Prez's party loses on average 41 seats in the house. If history runs true, the Right would gain back the majority in the house. If many 3rd party candidates run strong, that will probably favor the Democrats. We shall see.

Regarding the original post. AP was looking into it and here is what they wrote.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gv3u2gkjVdgQg7_Uzkqk_WGMXPcwD9F21KAG1

I get the feeling that both sides need to chill. I wish there was definitive proof either way. Both sides scream and yell so much these days. It gets old. I usually just want people to respect others even if they disagree.

PS, it has come to my attention that the congress might have to live under the healthcare legislation they passed. If they change it for themselves, they would seem to be hypocrites. It will certainly show their true colors even more if this tidbit is true.

Good Night.

Google or bing "Eric Kantor's gunshot claim". Police report indicates someone was shooting in the air and the bullet landed -- went through a window and not even through the blind. Seems unlikely someone was trying to shoot through his window.

Police report also indicates bullet went through a window in an office in the building where Kantor's offices are -- more collateral damage.

The other question I think we have to ask here is why??? Assuming we have a bunch of crazies on the left who start militias and shoot at people, um, Kantor's team lost. Why would we want to shoot at him? I, personally, want to encourage him (and the rest of the right) to continue along this path and to be sure and fire anyone on their side (like David Frum) who disagrees with them. :-) Yup, that was sarcasm. Don't have time to make sure it's spelled correctly, but I couldn't stay away.

HMC Rich: I just wanted to weigh in on your quandary about the Patriot Act. I opposed it under Bush and I continue to oppose it under Obama. There are a few provisions of the Act that were front and center on the administration's agenda before 9/11, such as roving wiretaps. But the wholesale revamping of privacy law in the Act was disturbing then and it's disturbing now.

Also, there is widespread use of Patriot Act power against Americans. The Act substantially expanded the government's power to engage in secret searches on US soil. A typical search warrant requires that the person's whose place is searched receive an inventory of what was taken and information about the basis for the warrant. Under the Patriot Act, it is far easier for the FBI to get a warrant for what's called a "sneak and peek," search. The agents go in when your home or office is unoccupied and conduct a secret search.

Another favorite of the FBI is the "national security letter," which allows agents to get financial, educational, travel and other types of records on any person in the United States without a search warrant or a subpoena. And it comes packaged up with a gag order on the recipient. So if your bank gets a national security letter demanding your records (and considering your penchant for radical literature like Mad Magazine, well, who knows?...) you will not know about it, and you won't be able to go to court to prevent it.

These provisions were designed (it was said) to get at international terrorist threats. But that is not how they are used. They are used in garden-variety federal criminal investigations.

I may not agree with you on how many terrorist attacks have been thwarted as a result of these sorts of expanded government powers. There are always many ways to look at that kind of data. For me the question is not whether the ends justify the means, because there's always the possibility that intrusion on people's private lives will prevent crimes (just like there's the possibility that torture will get you a confession that contains useful intelligence). I think I frame the issue more in terms of whether the sacrifices in which the American people have acquiesced are, or are not, fundamentally consistent with the values expressed in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence. I don't think they are, and I'm disappointed in lawmakers of any political creed who embrace the the notion that the Patriot Act's dilution of personal privacy is reasonable.

from metrognomes link...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001204-503544.html

"Frum told Greg Sargent that Brooks said he "welcomed and celebrated" Frum's Waterloo post and that Brooks said he was asking Frum to leave AEI because "these are hard times." Frum said Brooks offered him the opportunity to keep writing for AEI, though without compensation."

could it be the well has run dry for anyone who doesn't bang the drum loudly?

this.. btw.. is why the connection between money and politics matters.

Rich -- I'm up too late too, but I wanted to thank you for the quality of your post (not saying I agree with all of it, just nice to see cogently articulated specifics in these threads.) I did have a clarifying question or two about the household income stats you cited: a) does that include social security, federal employees, US military, etc. or 'welfare' (sorry, too tired to think of a better word) such as ASC, food stamps, etc. and 'quasi-welfare' such as unemployment payments and b) is there an explanation for the projected Obama increase such as more seniors on SocSec, more federal employees, etc.
Also, to second dawsonct's concept of 'socialism', if you live in a community, you are by definition a socialist of some sort in that wealth is collected and re-distributed to pay for services such as police, fire, roads, etc. Paying is not optional. No one pays the full cost of their use of public services (or of private services such as when your insurance pays you for the full value of your house when it burns down compared to the total in premiums you have paid.)
So, specific case: I have never had children. I have directly paid property taxes for over 20 years that largely are spent to educate other people's children. The justification I am given is that good schools create good communities, which attracts more employers, which makes my property more valuable, etc. I'll be dead when my condo is sold; I have no heirs. I am retired, so a good job market is useless to me. So, from a rational conservative perspective, how is this different than the health care situation? Why isn't McKenna suing to overturn other 'unfunded mandates' like the Americans with Disabilities Act (several states have filed 'states sovereignty' suits against the ADA,) the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act (fed $$ for sewage tx plants has dried up as it were), etc.
BTW, you are right about Ike and the autobahn -- did you watch that History Intl Channel show on America's crumbling infrastructure tonite too?
And, I have been wrong too ... once ... wait ... the voices said way more than once. Way, way more.
Nanu Nanu
p.s here is a good list of documents on why conservatives should support public transportation: http://www.apta.com/resources/reportsandpublications/Pages/AdvocacyEducation.aspx
p.p.s. here is the reason I stayed up (I just had to hear something positive.) Enjoy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVPNRmTcJJw&feature=related

Dawsonct: Regarding post 45.

Before I get to it I just want to say that this forum does allow many ideas to be stated. These are just words typed. I would generally prefer to just get along and avoid some of the spirited debate. Sometimes people say things that rile me up. I generally do not respond and stay silent but other times I do feel compelled to offer my two cents. The next post is more like two bits.

OK, I have a little more time this evening than anticipated. I didn't want to do this, but you called me out.

Irony, I found it ironic that the former German Republic had certain items, and I said that both parties here have in common from my earlier post, items that are in some of our party platforms. I am against violence and hate.

I do not compare various EU countries to the dictator led Nazi Germany. Maybe Iran as far as a lunatic govern(mental) system. Incidentally, when they were buddy buddy with Hitler didn't they change their name from Persia to Iran (sounds a lot like Aryan) But, I wanted to point out that the larger certain governments and their bureaucracies get, the more possibility of government overstepping their intended limits.

Our friends at Wikipedia state the following about Social Democracies: Social democracy is a political ideology of the centre-left on the classic political spectrum. Social democracy is traditionally a form of evolutionary reformist socialism. However, since the rise in popularity of the New Right, a number of prominent social democratic parties have abandoned the goal of the gradual evolution of capitalism to socialism and instead support welfare state capitalism.

Isn't that interesting. Does that compare to your history or reference books? Please, enlighten me if I am wrong. Point me toward the correct state sponsored texts.

Now, in our Republic, estimates hold that in 2004, 20 percent of US households were receiveing 75% of their income from the Federal Government. (I am not criticizing them either). Another 20% of households were receiving nearly 40%. So about 60% of American households were receiving more government benefits and services, measured in dollars, than they were paying back in taxes. It has been estimated the President Obama's first budget alone raises this level of "net dependency" to 70 percent. (Eventually down the road we will see if these numbers are close.)

This new legislation with Healthcare will represent the greatest expansion of the welfare state in our generation and possibly in history. 110 million Americans could claim this new entitlement in a few years. (Paul Ryan's numbers and most of his words from a speech he gave.)

(Back to my words) All countries rise and fall. I am talking about looking into the future. About the gradual move towards tyranny, which our founding fathers seemed to want to ensure that we could try to stay away from. A noble goal, eh?

Here is one of many quandries. Many people in the past few years especially when W was in office were against the Patriot Act. 28 attempted terrorist attacks have been thwarted since instituted. Obama did not kill it, in fact I believe it has been renewed or affirmed. If it was bad under Bush then it must be bad under Obama too. Two Presidents who possibly have brought us closer to an intrusive abuse of power. For now it seems mostly to be used against overseas threats but could easily be used on the electorate with the right (meaning wrong) people in power.

No, didn't like stagflation under Nixon and Ford. Didn't like Watergate or President Clinton lying under oath. Didn't like the Clinton Administration illegally using a tank in Waco. Didn't like inflation under Carter and a complete embarrasment over the Iranian hostage crisis. Didn't like Iran/Contra by Reagan. Nope, didn't like the assassinations and attempts of the 60's, 70's, and 80's. I know that these men did not fit into tiny little packages. They did what they thought was right. I take more of a macro view. I cannot tell you how many vetoes or bills were signed by our Presidents. I fully admit it.

You mention socialist highways. In a sense they are. In fact I like paying for them. They are necessary. They allow commerce, they allow me and others to prosper or at least try. But where did they come from? The Romans, well sort of. How about Ike, right? The former Allied Commander saw the German Autobahn and highway system from the National Socialists. Tanks and troops seem to move much more quickly on those nice wide boulevards and limited access highways. Am I wrong?

I admit, I can be wrong at times. Most definitely. I know you can be wrong because you spelled "Reagan" wrong. Whether on purpose or not, I do not know.

Yes I scream socialism, marxism, atheism, absolutism, anarchism and ignorantism when I take public transportation, drive on a road, or call the police department. Please, give me a break.

You can write just about anything you want. It is your right granted by the 10th Amendment. Where TF do I come from? I will answer literally. Well, the home state of Progressivism. A state that fought in the Union Army to preserve the country and eradicate slavery. The town where the coffee break was born. The state that has a socialist, I mean publicly held professional football team of which I am a proud owner. From the tobacco and corn fields of that state to the wheat fields and orchards of this state, from the public schools and universities of this state and my birth state. From a mostly Democratic family who I love dearly but politically disagree with. From Experience, from hard knocks, from mistakes, from education. I am a citizen of this wondrous country. With immigrant roots almost back to Mayflower and not so long ago. I have the freedom to say since I was so fortunate to be born here ...I Love You Too.

Finally, I have seen your posts and you do have expertise in some areas that I do not. It would be phony of me to say otherwise.

Yes Jan, you are correct.

Eric Cantor is part of a crowd...there's the gentleman from Danville, VA (my hometown) who voted yes, his address posted on the local Tea Party Website, and within 24 hours the gas line was cut at that address. http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0310/719066.html

Turned out to be his brother's address...where there were 4 children and both parents at home. Or the threats against our very own Rick Larson D-WA ("Rep. Larsen received two phone calls that raised concern with our staff. We discussed the threats internally and alerted Capitol Police Threats Assessment. Both callers mentioned possession of a weapon in the context of their opposition to health care reform. While we encourage a spirited debate and the right to speak freely on all issues, including health care reform, we draw the line at threats of violence."

Seems that there are idiots on both sides. I'm with you on this, Rich. That idiocy has got to stop. But humans being humans, we both know that the crazies will continue to do their best to give the rest of us a bad name.

Unfortunately it seems somebody took a shot at Eric Cantor's campaign office. This idiocy must stop. http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/state_regional/article/possible_shot_fired_at_office_building_of_cantor_consultant/332877/

For those of you who think I am a right wing lunatic, I try to use more mainstream media links, just to seem unbiased. I am not a lunatic, just a little crazy.

JoB, I found the link very interesting. I think KG hit it on the head about the ones you don't hear about. I also listened to Drowning Pool, the heavy metal band and really liked them. Thanks. I call that type of music Crunch Metal because the Marshall's sound so crunchy!!!!

Just for giggles JoB, I think I was right in my statement about the Dems and Healthcare.
Behold: http://www.dccomics.com/mad/popup_mag.php?i=14378
If Mad Magazine says it, then it must be the truth. ;-)

Also, I am not a birther or a truther, but I am sort of a trekker. Peace and Long Life, Metrognome

I will answer some more in a later post.

e-forums are a poor way at best to have this kind of conversation; I believe you have made as many assumptions about me as you believe I have made about you. As you appeared to reject the MJ article out of hand, I did make the assumption that you would not believe other 'liberal' journalism. You did not actually say that my SWAG was wrong; you just chided me for making it. I didn't say you weren't worth talking to, I just said I wasn't going to spend time providing you with proof. And now you are dismissing me as jaded and stupid enough to drink the kool-aid because I disagreed with you. You are quite wrong -- I prefer Choo Choo Cherry, a non-kool-aid flavor, as it hides the bitter flavor better.
There are dangers in any belief system when it is carried to an extreme. The problem with keeping your head in the sand is that you may get your aspidistra shot off. Conversely, the problem with gophering up out of your bunker to make sure 'they' aren't out there is that you may end up with a third eye. There is a balance of awareness and caution that exists somewhere in the middle.
Frankly, I hope we both live long happy lives and look back in 20 years and wonder how we could have been so paranoid about 'patriots' and 'gang-bangers'. Live long and prosper.

"Second, I think your faith in background checks is misplaced as they only invesigate past behavior -- they don't predict the future."
Guess we are all suspects in your eyes since we can't predict the future. What a horrible way to live. I'll keep faith with the back ground checks and the LEO community to weed out fringe elements.

"And no, I am not going to waste my time finding other stories for you because you won't believe them anyway."
How do you know? Life have you jaded? To my knowledge we have never conversed on this blog, but I see you are making assumptions about me. I disagreed with you. I see having a disagreement against your beliefs is grounds to be dismissed as someone not worth talking to.

"Let me guess ... Tim McVeigh didn't blow up the OKC federal building ... eco-terrorists did it and blamed it on him."
What?? Where did that come from. Oh I get it, you're trying to paint me as some conspiracy theorist. Now I am beginning to believe you had too much kool-aid.

kg -- thanks for disagreeing, but your post is filled with unsubstantiated blanket statements and assumptions. It is true that large numbers of weapons and gear such as night vision goggles disappear; I never said they all went to militia groups. As they military inventory system sucks, often no one knows they are gone. And, when they do disappear (that would be the key word,) no one knows where they go unless someone is caught selling them (as happened earlier this year in OR) or they are used for a crime or are confiscated during a police investigation. Unless the militias are actively committing crimes (see the Robert Matthews link), it is unlikely that their weapons sources will be discovered.
Second, I think your faith in background checks is misplaced as they only invesigate past behavior -- they don't predict the future. And what is the biggest source of new police officers??? Having said that, I need to be clear that I am referring to the few bad apples. I think the vast majority of law enforcement officers are honorable individuals doing an extremely difficult job. I feel the same way about those who wear our country's military uniforms, which is why I am so furious about the way former chickenhawk in chief Bush put them in harm's way.
Legitimate news sources have done numerous stories on problems in the military due to right wing extremists, and, yes, gang members. These folks don't advertise their existence and command staff tend to look the other way because they need soldiers. I found the following story in about 10 seconds: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/06/15/neo_nazis_army/
And no, I am not going to waste my time finding other stories for you because you won't believe them anyway.
I will note that I was on a federal jury a number of years ago and the Seattle PD officer on trial was accused of being a follower of the Posse Comitatus. He developed these beliefs AFTER joining the police force which means AFTER the background check.
Let me guess ... Tim McVeigh didn't blow up the OKC federal building ... eco-terrorists did it and blamed it on him. And yes, I do believe radical left wing eco-terrorist groups exist and no, I don't support their methods. And I am less worried about a gang banger than about a 'patriot' with a sniper rifle.

RE:http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
If and when the "US government when it declares martial law" on the citizens of the United States of America, the last thing the GOV officials will be fearing is Private Dumba*s and his .50 Cal. Which he will probably never be able to afford due to them being so expensive.
This has got to be one of the most unintelligent articles I've ever read. Any "military" article that starts with the political & strategic opinions of a dumba*s "private" rates right up there with with the National Enquirer.

metrognome:
"(a huge number of tactical weapons 'disappear' from active and reserve military facilities every year)" ----are there any other kind, able to be walked off with? Do they all end up in the hands of 'hate' groups or are you making assumptions? I would say a larger majority end up in regular 'run of the mill' gang hands. A quick google search would show reputable sources to that. So I disagree with your blanket statement.

"Now that they have infiltrated our military and polices forces to the extent they have, they will also attempt to access military and police weapons stores once they deem it is time for the revolution."
I would say that police agencies are not a walk in the park to get into. Background checks are done on all new hires, to my knowledge, for the Seattle PD and King County Sherrif's. I would also dare say thate the background check thing is pretty common to most if not all police department's. Your blanket statement is nothing but fear mongering. As for the military portion of your quote I would say that the military is a cross section of society that will have good and bad elements within its ranks. I think 'gang bangers' were the only whack jobs I ever ran across and they truly seemed to be in to turn their lives around. Any fringe elements/racists were kicked out pretty quick due to non compatibility to the military lifestyle.

And for those of you who read my little post I would leave you with this.
The fringe whack jobs (on both ends of the spectrum) that you know about shouldn't worry you, it's the ones smart enough to keep silent you should be forever vigilant of.

Hee hee hee ... this is funny: conservative think tank terminates fellowship of commentator who criticized GOP in his blog ... but it wasn't related to his criticism ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001204-503544.html

metrognome..
i know:(

miws..
i wasn't so happy to post it

HMC Rich
"For the past few months the democratic party has taken a beating. With the passage of health care insurance through all means possible the President is getting his wish. The house and senate games the system just like the republicans did in the past. Patronage and the good old boy network is strong in both parties."

So Rich.. just for giggles.. how exactly was the President supposed to pass any kind of health care reform that included the republicans?

He met with them... bargained... included many of their own proposals in the bill.. and they still used every obstructionist tactic available to them.. lied to the American public about what it contained and still voted as a political block against it... all the while whining about not being included and that we really just needed to start over.

Give me a break!

I am not impressed with this bill. It falls short big time in producing actual health care delivery reform.
It is a huge handout to the health insurance industry as the positive bump in the stock market at it's passage confirms.

The truth is that this bill is the worst kind of centrist compromise...

But you will never hear that from the Republican leadership... you would think this was some sort of mega socialist handout from their comments.

You can't work with people who refuse to work with you.

Obama's real mistake here wasn't pushing the bill through the only way possible... but spending all that political capital and getting so very little for it.

And they're the ones comparing Obama to Hitler....

Mike

JoB -- unfortunately, you are wrong; they are not a "small group of men": http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map
There are many more of them than you might think; they just went underground after one of their own named Timothy McVeigh got them so much unwanted attention. They are extremely well organized and well armed on their own (a huge number of tactical weapons 'disappear' from active and reserve military facilities every year). Now that they have infiltrated our military and polices forces to the extent they have, they will also attempt to access military and police weapons stores once they deem it is time for the revolution. Their key tactic will be to take out military and political leaders who are loyal to the 'opposition'. Once they start the revolution, a dictatorship is their only governance option and enslavement or mass murder of anyone who does not sign a loyalty oath is their only way to retain control (remember the classic Bushism: 'if you're not with us, you're against us.) Classic tactics used from the beginning of time to establish dictatorships.

Do you remember when Robert Matthews lived in this area? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jay_Mathews

Wow, JoB, I don't know if I should say "Thank You" for the link to that article or not. ;-)

I mean, I knew these types of individuals and groups existed, but it's even more disturbing to get an "inside scoop" on their thoughts and agendas.

It would be easy enough to laugh them off as a bunch of paranoid nutcases, if it weren't for the fact how heavily they arm themselves, and the military experience some of them have. Not only for their knowledge of how to fight, but also the fact they have knowledge of military operations, that may be used against them, should they act on any of their threats.

One thing I found highly offensive, is how the ex-Sheriff aligns himself with Rosa Parks. I highly doubt that someone of his type would have stood up for and protected Ms. Parks, as he claims.

I'm all for his Constitutional right to his religious beliefs, but to compare his perceived trampling of those rights by the Government, to the actual trampling of the rights of a group of United States citizens based on the color of their skin, (something that isn't chosen, unlike a belief, which is) to be repulsive.

Oh, and I think I'll throw this in just for fun.... I wonder how Sarah Palin would feel about Rhodes' use of the word "retarded"?

Mike

I certainly wish I had the time to answer you point by point. A year ago I could but not now.

For Jamminj. To call the Tea partiers the KKK is in my opinion just as bad as people calling Obama Hitler. I certainly did not see apologies when that was done to the former President.
Your rhetoric does us no good.

I too abhor the thought of violence and threats. Why inflame it? Condemn the bad individuals. I too condemn them.

I could also get together a laundry list of what the other side is saying. Thanks for the link.

Dawsonct. You make me chuckle. I wish I had the time to argue with you more. Ask the other posters about engaging on points last year. I did. I cannot now. Yes I do not answer your posts point by point. I have more necessarry items to do.

I find your posts interesting and maybe I am wrong but there are a few items that really tick you off and that edginess shows. I know more history than you think. If you feel that need to feel superior be my guest.

For the past few months the democratic party has taken a beating. With the passage of health care insurance through all means possible the President is getting his wish. The house and senate games the system just like the republicans did in the past. Patronage and the good old boy network is strong in both parties.

Tell me you are proud of this process. I never was when the Republicans pulled that crap. That is why new blood is being molded for the next few elections. The people who voted for Obama wanted change. Kind of like the Tea Party movement wants change too.

America has had a few awakenings the last few hundred years. This is another change.

Just like Smitty said. How many times do I have to say it

Violence . . . racism are wrong. I am against it.

When I have more time I will answer your points. When I am ready. I have more important items to take care of. Chat with you soon. I will when I can.

As long as the dissolution of the American family and the affect on society in general is being mentioned, it stands as yet another example of the 'blame the victim' mindset of Republicans.
Consider at some point the effects of Jim Crow laws and how they actually penalized what would have been a fairly normal African-American household of the era. Men weren't highly employable in the Old South, rarely could find steady work, always the lowest paid, were the first laid off, and never rose to positions of management. If a household had an adult working-age male living in it, what little public assistance a family COULD receive, wouldn't be available to them. Consequently, most adult males left their families for the factories of the North. Sometimes families would eventually be reunited, but more often the splintering would just continue.
--
As with some aspects of institutional racism, this type of family splintering continues but more on the basis of class and economics.
--
How someone can possibly argue that the circumstances one is born into should dictate their worth to society is completely beyond me. That child you refuse to assist, post-partum, is a real, LIVE human being who is living out their potential. If we refuse to help keep them healthy, to help keep them fed, to educate them and give them a vision of a better future, we will simply continue down the road being paved for us by the prison-industrial complex and the ultra-conservative ideals of Today's Republican Party.
--
Providing a social safety-net doesn't create a lazy society, it allows people to take risks and push the limits of their potential. The Calvinist mind-set held by the Republicans, that wealth=virtue (as long as the wealthy pander to your parochial biases), will ruin America.

A small bunch of guys walking strutting around with guns...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers

JoB, dawsonct, jamminj -- WOW!! Thanks for your posts. I have been out here for a while struggling with all my pent-up anger about the Tea Party babies throwing bricks through windows and cutting propane lines (at the wrong house, BTW) and your posts just put my feelings into words.
No matter what they say, this is about showing that 'uppity n-word' what his real place is. What you are watching is a lynch mob. They should at least be honest enough to put their hoods on. I too fear for my country ...
- gun sales are through the roof, allegedly because communist Obama was going to implement gun control; proof? NONE. Do you know how easy it is to buy a 50 cal. sniper rifle or to convert a semiauto rifle to full auto under the guise of the 'right to bear arms' -- is that what our Founding Fathers envisioned as a well-regulated militia?
- threats against this president are up several hundred percent over any president in history, incl. George W. Bush, who is responsible for the deaths of over 4,000 US troops. The threats started as soon as the election was over, based on paranoid ramblings of well armed thugs rather than on, say, starting a war by lying to Congress and the American people.
- Remember Timothy McVeigh, the good Christian soldier who murdered hundreds of civilians -- he was not alone and is revered by more so-called patriots than a sane person can imagine.
- Thugs are openly carrying automatic weapons to town halls attended by the president; Bush's minions arrested people for wearing the wrong T shirt to his Republican-only love fests.
- Republican 'leaders' are raking in MILLION$$$ in donations by pouring gasoline on the fire. Do they really care about our nation? Not as long as our currency is still good.
I too fear for our country.
Last night (ok, early this morning) I watched a History Channel show on US snipers. I watched the parts about Chuck Mawhinney, a legend from the Viet Nam war and a cpl whose name I don't remember who rec'd a Silver Star, I believe, for his gallantry in Iraq. I was sruck by their matter-of-factness about doing their job, which was to protect fellow soldiers, and doing it well. They tok pride in protecting their fellow soldiers; I felt a great deal of admiration for their courage and skill, even though their job was to kill as many human beings as possible. Then I saw the the sniper instructor who referred to the enemy in Iraq as sacks of crap and gloated about the dogs feeding on their corpses (this is a huge issue for Muslims). The look of joy on his face disgusted me; I feel his disrespect for the enemy disgraced the Corps. I was surprised the military allowed those segments to air. There is no doubt in my mind that neo-conservatives consider the Iraq War to be a holy war -- there is incontrovertible proof that planning for the invasion began long before 9/11.
I too fear for our country.

HMCRich..

sorry to disillusion you. but my "heartfelt" positions are home grown.. right here in the pacific northwest.

i actually see my "radical socialism" as a direct result of my christian upbringing.

I read my bible many times and saw a clear difference in the message from first to second testaments.

I am a good old christian girl who believes that you treat others the way you would want to be treated..
that you share what you can and you make time to help others when there is something you can do for them..
that you render unto Caesar that which is Caesars.. namely taxes.. and in return for that you should be able to expect a well maintained infrastructure and an orderly safe society.
I believe those that can afford to pay more should pay more... because we didn't all get the same opportunities.

I am old enough to have friends who died from illegal abortions.
I am old enough to have friends who couldn't stand the pain of giving up their children to adoption and eventually committed suicide.. either the quick and dirty way or the long way by blurring all reality with drugs and alcohol..
I am old enough to have seen fathers abandon not only their wives but their children in their haste to have the latest model arm candy...
I am old enough to have watched those discarded women and children reduced to poverty and public ridicule..

I am also old enough to remember better times...
to have friends who relied on the nutrition plans for pregnant mothers to produce healthy children. to have been educated in a school system that valued education.

Mine was the last generation to live with the illusion of opportunity.

The rallying cry for my generation was..

"ask not what your country can do for you..
but what you can do for your country".

even now.. the peace corp thrives on the volunteerism of baby boomers.

Much has been made of the drugs and rock and roll in the 60s.. less has been said about the rampant idealism that was crushed by the very same political machine that has had their death grip on this nation for the last few decades.

The war mobilized my generation...
and incidentally produced an unexpected result... suffarge...
but Nixon suspending habeous corpus pulled young people from all backgrounds into the street. it's been done again and i am left asking.. where is the outrage?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results... The Bush elder crew came directly from Dick Nixon's inner circle... who by the way cut his chops with McCarthy... second verse was a president with Altzeimers run by his chief of staff.. another Nixon holdover... and then Bush younger run by Cheney.. look it up.. another Nixon holdover.

No prosperity for the average american in any of those good republican presidencies... but heck.. who's counting.. because they just might stand up to those ideals you think they have one day and make a difference.

It's pure insanity to expect that doing the same thing over and over will produce different results...

their policies brought us our current health care crisis.. our financial meltdown that may or may not still collapse the US economy... ongoing military involvement across the globe... reduced personal freedom.. reduced personal security... and the largest gap between the wealthy and the middle class in our nation's history.

The rights of businesses to make unlimited profits has decimated our retirement accounts and turned citizens into little more than profit generating centers for corporate america... all in the name of "free enterprise"... unless you count all those advantages our government has regulated for the top producers or the advantages they gain from having an unlimited conduit into the public till.

How is that working for you these days?

the motto for this generation seems to be either

ask not what your president can do for you
but what you can do for your president.. or

ask not what your party can do for you
but what you can do for your party...

What happened to idealism on either side of that political aisle?
What happened to thinking individuals who listened to the propaganda and went home asking themselves whether or not all this malarky was in their best interests?

I can tell you what happened because i have been present to watch it..
hate happened.
hate overtook too many of our churches...
hate became our political language...
and all of that was aided abetted by undermining our educational system so effectively that most of our populace can't tell the difference between a valid argument and a smear campaign.

You get what you pay for.. and all that rhetoric about limiting taxes and kicking the government out of our private lives (so corporations can siphon off even more of your hard earned money) buys you an angry, ignorant, frustrated mob who will believe anything they are told.

This is not the America i hoped my grandchildren and greatgrandchildren would grow up in..
and quite frankly it isn't the America i want to retire in.

Experience has taught me that the lies they are selling as truth are just advertising campaigns...

let the buyer beware

Rich, I have tried to have reasoned, civil discussions with you, but you are never willing to address points made, and constantly gloss over or ignore corrections of your "facts" and assumptions. I know it's not personal, your non-responses are received by everyone. I have a very difficult time taking someone seriously who is so clueless about political systems that they would equate National Socialism with social democracies (which, too bad, the United States IS). You need to track down an introduction to political science textbook and READ IT.
Fact is, OUR Presidents politics are nearly indistinguishable from those of Bill Clinton. In other words, slightly to the left of Nixon, slightly to the right of Eisenhower. Jimmy Carter, the man who DEregulated the airline industry (OOOH, we can't restrain trade with RULES!!!), was about as close to a real Democrat as we have come over the last forty years.
Where is the scary socialist line? Are those tax-payer created freeways and roads you drive on socialist? Are the police who pull you over for drunk driving part of a socialist govt? How about the tax-payer supported fire department? REAGEN signed the law making it illegal for emergency rooms to turn away patients. Was Reagen a socialist? When you breath clean air or drink clean water, brought to you by government regulation of polluters, do you scream socialism? At what point is a civil society too much for you to take? We live in a cooperative system; it's what humans do. Where TF do YOU come from?
--
Maybe you can go join Rush, Glenn-boy and Rick Perry in the Disunited State of Texas. Get a gun, in the end, it'll be your only freedom.

An open letter to conservatives
.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/a/m/americandad/2010/03/an-open-letter-to-conservative.php?ref=recdc
.
"the GOP -- and the conservative end of the American political spectrum has become irresponsible and irrational. Worse, it's tolerating, promoting and celebrating prejudice and hatred."
.
as far as the question, have I ever been to a 'tea party' party, nope. But I've never been to a KKK rally either... don't need to attend either to know the message of hate.
.
"mostly white but still a group of people who would rather just vote and live out their lives, but due to some radical or different governmental actions, have decided"
.
Yes, but now that the elected officials are ones that they disagree with, there are claims of
TYRANNY and ARMAGEDDON. Don't like the outcome, we have people advocating throwing rocks, calling people the n word, and threatening further violence. And these are from the so called leaders.
.

How many photos of people with posters portraying Obama as Hitler during "Tea Party" rallies do we have to see before we form an opinion? 5? 10? 20? How many are OK, before we get the idea? How many black Congressmen have to be called the "n" word and spit upon before it's not OK? Once? 20? Where do we draw the line? What is an acceptable number to you? to any of us? When will the "politicians" who are benefiting from it finally call them on it? We need to hold them all accountable, make them take personal responsibility for egging these people on so they can benefit.

What ever happened to intelligent civil protest and discourse? Why are these people excused because they're only the "fringes"? How do we truly know that the majority doesn't feel the way they do? Because we heard so on Fox News? on CNN? MSNBC? I'm appalled, have been appalled, will always be appalled that there are human beings out there with the intelligence of my left shoe doing this in my country. I suppose I'm in the minority though....my view isn't taken very seriously among many people. Oh, well...not a perfect world, is it?

I appreciate the responses given towards my post and others. We disagree quite a bit.

I believe many of you are so used to agreeing with each other that outside opinions will not be accepted.

I appreciate Jo's post about children's choices because it was from the heart. (Definitely not 41 although I am thinking Minnesota roots.?) Personal experience is one of our most cherished decision makers we have. More education is the key to many of these problems. Being open minded is another. It is easy to close our minds and lash out. Plus the written word is not good with context or facial expressions to understand peoples full meaning.

I have seen, at times, hatred come from many socio-economic groups. It is ugly. I have received bruises from that ugliness. I see mistakes repeated, but I also see light at the end of some tunnels.

I feel sorry for the old Democrat who has had their party taken from them. Others are happy at the changes. I feel chagrin, and a bit of wonder, for the Progressive Movement on how they have changed the country in a bit over a century. I also feel compelled to argue the conservative view point at times because I believe it is the better choice. That is not to say that I am not open to issues that are passionately spoken about that are not lock-step with the conservative cause. I just do not see reciprocation from the left quite often.

Jamminj, have you been to a Tea Party? If you have and have seen them promoting hate then it would be hard for me to refute your claim. Or are you just using the media which sensationalizes much of what we see and hear? Where one of the most used terms in media is the term "edit". You are entitled to your opinion, but is it based in fact or rhetoric?

Do people get riled up? To quote my neighbors from the upper midwest, Ya Sure, You Betcha. I have been to a few political meetings but not the Tea Party gatherings. I prefer The 9/12 project due to the values and principles applied to that movement to keep it in check. I saw men, women, and people of different ethnicities. Granted, mostly white but still a group of people who would rather just vote and live out their lives, but due to some radical or different governmental actions, have decided to pay more attention to the people that we all elect and what they are pushing.

So, if you and others truly think you are smarter than the rest of us, then so be it. You are entitled to your own views. Arrogance and Humility. I would like to think that we all show those traits once in awhile.

Good Night, Rich

jamminj..

not quite.. but close.

they are the good old boys who sat in the local bars drinking and laughing about the hanging bodies in their local trees..

they are the women whose virtue was so fragile that a man of color couldn't speak to them without compromising it.

they are the downtrodden have nots who were so desperate to get that they would literally kill to keep prevent anyone else from getting.

they are those with so little sense of self worth that their fragile sense of social position depends entirely on those they can keep underfoot.

they are those for whom the mob is essential to their ability to speak.

and perhaps those whose hoods are necessary to allow them to face their own mirrors...

"do you truly believe that most people of the tea party movement are racist?"

YES. when the fringe become the vocal majority, they come to represent the movement. Not only are the racists and bigots becoming the face of the tea party, now you have some republicans leaders either making excuses for their behavior or leading them on. You have a whole network that stages demonstrations in their name.

When there is no longer a discussion, but only a banging of the drum just to drown out ANY discussion... then those miscreants are no longer interested in honest discussion and exchange of ideas, but only to disrupt the democratic process.

The tea party is the new KKK.

intotheknight..

i didn't say racism isn't an issue..and more than sexism is... but it is not "the" issue with teabaggers. they are equal opportunity haters.

HMCRich...

did you miss Sarah's speechs somewhere in the midwest during the campaign where she "jokingly" advocated killing the president and referred repeatedly to his race.. and where she smiled as audience members.. you know those crazy few... shouted racist slurs?

And i thought you such a fan...

As for abortion rights.. i will say the same thing to you that i have said to those who argued with me for the past 40+ years... i will have more respect for your concern for the life of a fetus when you have more respect for my concern for the life of the mother and her child.

If a respect for life was truly the over-riding issue here... conservatives would be all for programs that support pregnant women medically, socially and financially and that concern would be reflected in infant mortality rates.
Our live birth rates fall barely above third world nations.

If a respect for life was truly the over-riding issue here... programs that provide for the health and well being of all children.. including a first rate education would have the full support of the conservative coalition. The stats don't support that either.

you can say all you want to about intention..
but outcome tells a very different story.

the right to life movement has nothing to do with life.. but with controlling procreation... thereby controlling women.
It's a power grab of the most insidious kind.

Over 40 years ago i made the right choice for myself and carried a child to term. I was lucky that my child and his family came back into my life.. but for 30+ years i was suicidal on his birthday.. never knowing whether he was dead or alive.

I can't begin to describe the loss i carried because of my decision... but at least my doctor gave me a choice even though that choice was not legal at the time.

If you are going to insist a woman assume all of the responsibility for making a life for herself and her child..
you need to also give her the right to decide for herself whether she can accept that responsibility.

It's all very well to strut your stuff and walk away.. blaming a woman for her lack of birth control... but i am living proof that birth control is not always so successful.

lst baby... i wasn't supposed to be able to ever have children due to medical complications from incest.. thus the doc's offer of a D&C...
2nd baby... i used condoms... i wouldn't count on them for protection from sexually transmitted diseases either...
3rd baby.. that was a failure of the pill.. and yes it took it religiously.. my husband was too busy "spreading his seed" to invest in his own marriage..
4th baby... a fetus that didn't survive that they found snuggled in with the tumors they found during my hysterectomy... apparently my tubal ligation was faulty:(

And that doesn't even begin to address the children who are the result of date rape or much worse or of incest.

It's too bad right to life folks don't care more about the living... but there you go... and there goes the argument that this has anything to do with a respect for life.

My take...and my take only. It's not JUST a racism thing, it's a hate thing. Racism is part of it, and it played out in that instance. But, the hate is what gets me. Yesterday, in the heat of it all, someone yelled out "Baby killer"...of course, there's a spin on it now, and the gentleman from Texas has apologized : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/randy-neugebauer-revealed_n_508525.html

Oh, yeah, I said "it's a baby killer" referring to the bill, not the person speaking"...yeah, that's the ticket. We will have to believe him, but I can bet you that after it was said, there was a scramble as to who could come up with the best "excuse" to downplay this. Maybe we just need to tape their mouths shut.

This country has come so far in so many things, yet..not...and it's so very sad.

As a person of color, JoB, I'd like you to explain this a bit more "Racism isn't the issue.. hate is". What exactly do you think racism is then, since by your logic, it isn't hate?

So when I'm called the n word it's totally not a racism issue?

As an internet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it wasn't necessary or germane without it necessarily being an insult, it's probably about time for the thread to end.
If someone brings up Nazis in general conversation when it was vaguely related but is basically being used as an insult, the speaker can be considered to be flaming and not debating.
If someone brings up Nazis in any conversation that has been going on too long for one of the parties, it can be used as a fair excuse to end the thread and declare victory for the other side.

http://wiki.killfile.org/projects/usenet/faqs/godwin/

Another reason I stay on this side of the mountains.

A friend of mine who recently moved to Walla Walla had a customer at his store leave behind three pennies because the person "couldn't stand to look at that terrorist's face." !!

"My wonderful wife told me that Hitler was right wing. I laughed and told her, Yes, right of Stalin and Communism."

Actually he was what would be considered today a Moral Conservative. He was also a Christian.
Replace the word jew with the word fag, and his speeches mirror many of the religious right today.

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 10

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work.

- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936

The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.

- Adolf Hitler in conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber of Bavaria, November 4, 1936

"The family is the main unit for taking care of children but society has OK'd single parenting as a hallowed style of parenting. The prisons have too many people from single families. My parents divorced. I was fortunate. Many aren't."
-
Sorry, Rich, I too was a fan of yours - though miles apart on so many views - but you lost me on this one. I haven't had nearly enough coffee yet to write more, and it's probably slightly off topic anyway, but talk about ridiculous. Thanks for offending half of my family and minimizing (never asked to be "hallowed") our parenting.

Jan, don't get me wrong. I abhor the thing that was called Nazi Germany. I also abhor Anarchy. At times the fringe elements will get a tiny say in the more middle of the road debate. I was talking about the platform. Not the actions that the Third Reich took part of. Socialism is still common in Europe. Norway has flourished. Others have not. Greece is killing the EU. Why we need to head to more Federal Government control is beyond me.

As far as the entitlements go, you paid into them, you deserve a piece of the pie. Our elected representatives should not have made a pay as you go retirement fund. I have to look and see if a savings account for Social Security would have been unconstitutional. Anyway, it grew and grew, and the government took the surplus and spent it. Now what will we do when you boomers all hang it up with the 9 to 5 job?

We elected those people. They think they are helping us and in fact they have helped a ton of people. It has been mismanaged and it will most likely fail. So, in part it is income redistribution and I will be on the wrong end. Can you see why I find that ironic?

Yes, we're all entitled to our opinions, Rich......and I don't agree with yours. I once thought you the reasonable one on here, considering that we're probably on paper miles apart in thinking (but in person probably closer than we both think)...but even stating that some of the far left are capable of Nazi-like behavior doesn't sit well with me...just sayin'.

The rest? Well, I'm 63...guess I'll benefit from gov't. run programs way before you do...hmm...come to think about it, I already do...and I'm truly thankful for it. I consider myself very lucky to have it, indeed.