Rich..

i shudder to think what kind of idiots are being created everywhere that children are not taught to question everything they are taught.

as for Ref71.. although it will give gay couples legal access to the rights of married couples it will also give the same rights to heterosexual couples who can not marry without penalty... and to any other two individuals who choose to make a life partnership for any reason.

As long as those in the medical profession can deny access to a loved one who is ill because they are neither a family member or a spouse, this referendum is necessary.

As long as the family of your deceased partner can attempt to seize your assets upon their death, or deny you access to your loved one's funeral, this referendum is necessary.

and that's just the short list...

Unfortunately, a bill granting gays the right to marry wouldn't solve the lack of rights in the many complicated living arrangements that now exist... and that ref 71 addresses.

If gay marriage comes to a vote I will support that as wholeheartedly as i support ref 71, but for very different reasons. I will support that because i believe that gays have as much right to both the legal protections and sanctity of marriage as us straights... they can't do more damage to marriage and the American family than our current wave of serial marriages has already done.

Maybe it's time we all started taking our commitments more seriously.

HMC Rich, Thank you.

As for post 42
Right Wing Christians. Please expand your definitions. There are many kinds of congregations. I must admit, i would not care to attend a church that promotes Liberation Theology nor Racism or violence. Violence is not prescribed by any normal church whether conservative or liberal.

I think Andrea's post of your statement about Jesus is right on.

I also once posted the numbers of attacks on abortion clinics. They are not following normal christian or societal values. These people are breaking the law and have killed, damaged and maimed. They are not the norm and there have been and are too many extremists. Abortion is legal but 35+ million deaths is repugnant and sad also.

OK City. McVeigh and Nicholls. President Clinton blamed talk radio but he was also shifting the focus away from the illegal attack on the Branch Davidian complex. McVeigh once noted that he was seeking retribution for what the government did at Waco. There is evidence that there were middle eastern influences on that attack but McVeigh was put to death so we will never know. What kind of ...ers... is that? It is ironic how that bomb was almost a near replica of the first WTC bomb. I am not defending Koresh's group. At least with the Breakaway LDS sect last year they did a much better job of dealing with a religious group. McVeigh was anti government. He seemed right wing and was definitely anti government. Most sensible people would reject his philosophy. Problem is there are a lot of people on both sides who are not sensible nor compassionate. What a horrible deed and unfortunately there will be more senseless acts and that saddens me.

Eric Rudolph fits the mold of a right wing extremist too. No doubt about it. Incomprehensible why these people did what they did. I am against followers of groups like the Aryan nations. Most people are.

Fred Phelps group is a bunch of unfortunately highly educated and in my opinion completely idiotic morons who abuse the right of free speech and have lost the meaning of tolerance. We have no disagreement.

You wrote (that driscoll...) "He is creating the people that will force creationism into science classes, abortion clinics to close out of fear, prevent same sex couples from marrying, take books out of libraries that they think you shouldn't read, he is creating people that will tell your daughters they are the property of their husbands, and yes he is part of the general air that is creating the next Timothy McVeigh."

That is your opinion. You disagree with him or them and I am using your words. They probably disagree with you. I don't know if your statement about their beliefs is true. They might believe that you are wrong. Each side has a right to their own view. Do you want to censor theirs? Disagreement is fine, censoring is not.

You might be surprised to know that I will be voting to approve the legislatures proposition. I believe in equal rights for everyone (except JoB - you know I am teasing JoB). But to say it has nothing to do with Gay Marriage is a crock. This is where the Progressive movement plays with the truth. Regardless, I have gay relatives and friends. They should not be denied fair rights. I also understand that the opposition has their own view. That is why we vote, educate, learn and grow. Time will tell what will happen. I cannot stand President Obama's mostly progressive big government agenda but I will always respect that he is our President.

So if the religious right is going to create Tim McVeigh's, what is the other side going to create that is evil? If you want, I can come up with a huge list of left (and right) wing idiots but why? Don't we want what is best for all of us? I would prefer to get along.

I mean no malice toward you. Written communication cannot convey how happy to irritated or mad somebody is. Your posts are passionate. Take Care, Rich

Hello Walker. Evolution is the best theory that explains where humans and other species came from. Natural selection has been proven frequently. I believe this science.

On the other hand ... So far what has not been explained is the beginning of life. Someday I hope to know.
A self proclaimed atheist Richard Dawkins writes that the genetic code is truly digital. There is an elegance to our DNA and he showed that the DNA molecule is an algorithym in codes. Also, evolution does not explain consciousness. I found an excellent article on this by Steven Pinker in Time. His conclusion thus far on page 7 was extremely interesting.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580394-1,00.html

Evolution explains a lot but not everything. That is not to say I am going to say Intelligent Design is a proven fact. It is not. It is a theory only. Evolution comes from science. We also find from science that what we thought was fact sometimes becomes myth. Science is in itself evolving.

Did any of you watch on Nat Geo "The Human Family Tree".? It was fascinating. Using real science, DNA testing, they trace all of humanity back to Africa. Not caring to be an Anthropologist, I nevertheless found the explanations on the way people "evolved" very informative and full of common sense. The migration of the human race was and is extraordinary.

It also did another thing. It shows how completely senseless racism is. Northern continental people needed their skin to lighten up so that Vitamin D could be manufactured from the sun. Dark pigment in a northern climate would inhibit it.

CC - keep the faith. According to some all Christians must be right-wing zealots. Most people are not so narrow minded Thank God!
JoB - keep the faith, but you know I like capitalism not corporatism.
Walker - I do not believe I am a bully but there are macro and micro views. I do not care if you like religions or not. Your opinion is important. If I decide to take on your "facts" or you take on my "facts" then I commend you. All I can say is don't believe all of the propoganda from both or multiple sides.

Ken,
the link was of interest to me.. as a sweet young thing i thought i might become an anthropologist and have never lost my interest in all things ancient.. then i thought i might become a nuclear scientist and have never lost my interest in all things scientific.. studied accounting so i wouldn't have to become a bookkeeper like my mom and discovered sociology and philosophy along the way :)))

i am not sure there is anything i am not insanely curious about except perhaps sports.. and even then i go weak in the knees for rugby and gymnastics and skating and...

I really can't understand why anyone wouldn't be fascinated by the journey scientific thought has taken in the last few decades... we know so much and are just beginning to figure out how little.

Hoff-animal..

Jeez.. you sure know how to rain on my parade..

as an citizen i am sure you are as responsible for the bad decisions made in the name of of the United States of America.. the poor choices and bullying political tactics that have given us a worldwide black eye that is only now beginning to fade.. as i am for the over zealous self promotion of some Christian realists.

I just said no to both... fat lot of good it did me:(

For everyone here who thinks all christians are extreme right wing zealots, take a look at the new topic WEST SEATTLE CLERGY Support REF 71 !!!!

JOB:
I did not consider you as the target audience for my last ... epistle. :)

I was hoping for a wider one which included those who only read the headlines as well as those who have evolved the extremely hard heads of the Gopasaurus rectocranius.

I hoped the link was of interest to you though.

I consider Dr Hawks to be the missing link between academics who could put insomniacs to sleep professionally, and the Science-journalist who try to punch up the conclusions to grab their audience and gloss over important data because it involves Latin words.

He cuts through the bs and the sonomulance with equal ease.

Dobro...I think you are on the right track. Job...not so much.

Ken..

i didn't even imply that this finding pokes holes in evolution... as you may have noted, i pointed out that this early "man" had more in common with apes than with man...

What i said is that there is much we don't yet know.. and this finding may well poke holes in the theory of ape as man's evolutionary ancestor... it appears we may have more to learn before making pronouncements.

more to the point, i have never thought belief in Christianity and a respect for science were contradictory... nor have many of our most revered scientists.

There is only a small segment of the Christian population that are Bible literalists.. counting 24 hour days for creation and 6000 years for the existence of man... and lobbying for creationism not evolutionary theory in schools...

yet when Christian belief is mentioned that minority is pulled out and dangled in front of us like theirs was the only story told.

I admit, they have been a very vocal minority and they were.. and still are... backed to the hilt politically by a segment of the Republican party and by the mainstream press... but they are still a minority.

They.. and preachers like Mark... are the reason i finally decided to be public about my faith... to open an opportunity for other people of faith to speak out about the misperceptions of that vocal minority that have become more important than the majority whose faith has a positive impact on their communities.

It never occurred to me that i would have to defend my faith as zealously from the distortions of the left as from those of the right...

There are a lot of Christians for whom there is no choice between science and faith because they see no contradiction ... for whom faith trumps the details that derail literalists from both sides of the fence... the ability to see the contradictions and still believe is the essence of faith.

I feel no real or imagined persecution... but i can see that those who impale all Christians at the point of the extremist literal fringe are ignoring the many diverse Christian voices appalled by the excesses perpetrated in the name of Christianity... and are ignoring the Christian coalition that has been.. in my lifetime... a major component of the backbone of the democratic party and a strong supporter of liberal agendas.

I will eagerly join in denunciation of extremist Christian views. I agree completely with the need for separation of church and state.

On a personal level, I believe that any faith or belief system has merit for those who believe... and further i don't believe that my faith is superior for anyone excepting myself and those who make the choice for Christianity. I am not holier than thou.. or more righteuos.. or...

but i draw the line at being tarred with the brush of extremists... being held responsible for their words and actions as though they were my own... and having the scripture from what i think of as my bible used as a political weapon from either side.

You are preaching to the choir and some of us are Christians.

Here is the actual info on the recently announced discovery. Note it is quite different from the flagrant BS used by the AP and NYT headline writers. Many of the pronouncements in the news article give no hint of the contentious multiple interpretations argued by the scientist involved in the last 15 years since the actual discovery.

I have no problem with the scientist involved planning this massive PR simultaneous release of papers, but the major news outlets understand the science has to be dumbed down severely or most of their readers will click over to Hollywood "news".

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/ardipithecus/ardipithecus-faq-2009.html

AP now writes different versions of many of their news wire releases and gives editing tips so that right leaning papers and other media can shift the focus of a story to fit their audience. This usually lets the headline writers tweak the headline to grab attention.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sc/us_sci_before_lucy_2

While this first link and the news stories differ, nothing pokes any holes in the basic theory of evolution.

We still evolved from an ancestor that had feet optimized for grasping just like the current ape family of primates. It is not exactly like the modern apes so there is lots of disputes about what this means. It is just about a million years before that next most recent finds in the
australopithecine group.

Read the details if you will and perhaps note that people ordinarily cannot imaging how many of anything is a million, whether dollars or years.

Well said Jo.Thank you.

Dobroe..

there's the rub. i am not a member of the cult and wouldn't belong to any church that exhibited features of a cult... yet i still consider myself a christian.

Ken..

actually the newest science is a skeleton.. or parts of a skeleton that predate Lucy and seem to predate chimps... the humans from apes theory may in fact be wrong....

so you could believe in evolution but not that we descended from apes and you might be right.

which doesn't mean that evolution is wrong.. or that science is wrong.. just that we are still learning.

it is likely that the creature whose skeleton they found would have more in common with apes than modern man.

i think it is too easy to trigger on words or phrases and read into them more than was intended..

for me.. that's what makes it difficult to speak about faith. No matter how carefully you try to express yourself you are weighed down with the accumulation of reactions to the words and phrases of faith that have been appropriated for personal or political gain and to the accumulated resentment for perceived expectations of undue respect.

I realize that those perceptions have been created by people who call themselves Christians..

but in my opinion, they are not people who live as Christians...

I am just curoius. What are the " many holes in the evolution theory to accept it all as fact."?

"... what dobro said sounded like criticism because he\she said christians are guilty of criticism."

One great thing about internet chats is that everything is written down so you can easily see what was really said. Here's what I really said...

"...The thing I have a hard time comprehending is why people are willing to censure, criticize, and, in many cases, kill other humans who don't believe the same fairy tales."

You'll notice I didn't say Christians. There are several other cults of organized religionists that are equally evil, violent, and intolerant but have their own set of fairy tales.

I have no problem with people believing anything they want. I do have a problem with those who want to force their beliefs on others. And the excuses that "not all Christianists do it" and "its not me" don't hold up well either. If your're a member of the cult and you have rogue elements it's your responsibility to police them, no one elses'.

Ken, I always appreciate your posts you give real information and i tend to take much of your iformation as fact. I believe there are too many holes in the evolution theory to accept it all as fact. I would gladly read any links you send me. Thanks for the offer. (Maybe its my sinful ego that prevents me from believing i could have apes as ancestors. lol.. that was just a joke to lighten things up .)

BB, an undue expectation of respect to whom? I will retract the we are all sinners comment and change it to "I believe we are all sinners because in the bible it says all have sinned and fallen short of the glory god" which yes i believe if you dont then it does not pertain to you. And if you believe the bible to be a book of fairytales and sin is a biblical term how can you make it about you? You dont believe it any more than i believe there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. heres the thing if you or anyone wishes to criticize me or my beliefs i dont care i am fully aware that my position is the unpopular one here and i am ok with that and coming to the defense of my beliefs is something that is not new to me and it does not bother me. i only mentioned that what dobro said sounded like criticism because he\she said christians are guilty of criticism. Which hello arent we all at some point guilty of some form of criticism? I do not even consider myself religious. Religion can be very dangerous. I am a christian who seeks the face of jesus. Many christians only seek his hand meaning help when its convenient for them. I dont presume you will understand this but it is my stance just for the record.

i think there is some evolution involved but nothing like we come from apes

Your misunderstanding of evolution and its fundamental underpinning of science is astounding.

Is this a belief system based on scripture or just the inability to understand the 8th grade level science?

As long as this is just a belief you pass on to your progeny in the privacy of your own home church or private school, that is your business.

If you advocate the subversion of public education to include any explanation that is not based on evidence, then you become part of the problem.

Are you interested in some links that explain the evidence?

The advances of science supporting evolution still have not impinged on matters of faith as even the Catholic church agrees.

As a matter of fact, there is far more evidence, approaching overwhelming, supporting the theory of evolution than there is supporting various theories of Gravity. Much of the evidence supporting both theories are all around us every day.

Science and evolution are frameworks used to coherently describe the observable and experimental data of the natural world. They are not "belief" systems.

If you want to think a literal reading of the bible requires you reject evolution, perhaps you should also reject all medical procedures based on that same framework.

Like the flu vaccine.

http://www.clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=1670

Thanks for the book recommendation, WSD. It sounds like something I'd enjoy.

Mythology is one of my favorite objects of study (if I ever pursue a doctorate it'll be part of the equation, though I'm still figuring out what I care about enough to sweat that much over). Jung isn't my favorite interpretive context but he definitely did a lot for those of us who like to think about this stuff.

I don't have much to add to the rest of this discussion except that I've always found Driscoll creepy, in a self-aggrandizing sort of way. Religious figures are a bit like prophets; they need authenticity to have authority, and he hasn't persuaded me of his.

Though it doesn't matter much to me personally as I haven't been a Christian for over 20 years.

It matters because there is an undue expectation of respect for one position, and not the other.

I don't take any of it personally. It's all ridiculous to me and for the most part, has no effect on my life.

This is a philosophical discussion on the myth of modern christian persecution. The christian taking the point of view that because a belief (not a person) is challenged, they are being somehow prejudiced.

There is no such responsibility on their part, for what they label and accuse people (as opposed to a lack of belief system) of being.

bluebird...

if you don't believe in Christianity then you don't believe that the concept of original sin pertains to you...

so what does it matter if cclarue does?

she can't consign you to an eternal state of sin... that takes a personal commitment that i am pretty sure you are not willing to make.

If you do believe, then you get to choose what to believe... so it would still take a personal commitment.

I was told that drinking beer would grow hair on my chest when i was little. i drank beer and so far the only hair is on my chin ;(

I suspect it has nothing to do with drinking beer.

However.. the two fairies perched on the lamp beside my computer might have something to do with my belief in fairy tales ;-)

dobro..

There has been much evil done in the world in the name of many things... including but not exclusive to Christianity...

how about capitalism. now there is a cult that is pure fairy tale... and does a lot of harm in the name of good.

you may have difficulty understanding why anyone would choose to believe..

but that still doesn't make those of us who do responsible for those who pervert religion for their own purposes.

that would make as much sense as me holding you personally responsible for the perversion of capitalism because you buy into the system... or me... because we are not self sustaining either.

i hold the frat boys and sorority girls who were too lazy to get a degree in anything that would interfere with their drinking and settled for a business degree...

they believed anything they are told, didn't understand what they were doing and were too vain to ask :((((( or maybe i should blame those who manipulated them.. or both.

what a cluster f...

i hold those who have used Christianity as a justification for pursuing their own agenda responsible for their own perfidity...

another cluster f... of gigantic and unfortunately political proportions.

K, so calling christianity (a belief system based on a story book) a fairy tale is criticism, yet calling all of us (actual live persons) sinners, is just a fact that needs to be accepted?

None of what I say is meant as personal criticism of anyone participating in this discussion.It's hard in these kinds of internet forums to voice an opinion and express the proper tone sometimes. Everyone has a right to believe in any kind of fairy tale they want and I don't accuse anyone personally here of censuring, criticizing or killing anyone.

I do, however, think that the Christian cult has been responsible for many of the most savage episodes in our history and has much to answer for in that regard. And I think that the idea of a human being rising from the dead is as much a fairy tale as Jack and the Beanstalk. I don't think anyone can cite any provable instances of this in human history.

Dobro I have not censured, criticized or killed you or anyone else. There are christians all through history who have been killed because they refused to deny Jesus. It goes both ways. And neither are right. And for the record Snow White and the seven dwarfs is a fairy tale. Bambi is a fairy tale, Jack and the beanstalk is a fairy tale. When you call my beliefs fairy tales it feels like criticism......hmm

"...I get that it is not easy for people comprhend Jesus or christianity."

thanks for your understanding, but actually I have no trouble comprehending Jesus (a historical figure who may or may not have existed but has been exalted in literature) or christianity (a cult that began many centuries ago and has been the source of much of the most savage behavior of mankind as well as some kindnesses).

The thing I have a hard time comprehending is why people are willing to censure, criticize, and, in many cases, kill other humans who don't believe the same fairy tales. Can anyone explain that one?

Dobro, Someone sitting on a cloud with a magic wand is a fairy tale. which you believe the bible is. I do not belive it to be a fairy tale but yes I believe we are gods creation but i do not know exactly what percent was god and what percent wasnt god. i think there is some evolution involved but nothing like we come from apes. I believe we are and always have been humans. I also have lived with and without Christ in my life and I much prefer the with. I get that it is not easy for people comprhend Jesus or christianity. I have asked many many questions to get where i am at and i had to seek out people i respected as intelligent people to get where i am at also, because so much of it does not sound logical. I also have a pastor who lived a secular life whose parents do not believe and to this day his father thinks he is crazy. So he gets it an keeps reality very much apart of his sermons. I know there are many christians in the world making christianity very unattractive. I do not subscribe to their rhetoric either. Standing on a corner shoving and anti abortion sign at every car that drives by in the name of Jesus is ridiculous to me and makes me want to get out and try to make him stop making the rest of us look bad!! Just like any group of people there are many differences within.

ken..

i share both your belief in gravity and the need to maintain the separation between church and state.

Dobro..

God is a guy with a long white beard? really?

I thought she was a woman with a long white braid and blue eyes and those papists who edited the books of the bible to those we now read changed all the shes to he ;-)

but seriously.. i guess i wasn't clear in making my statement about understanding the universe in context...

what i meant is that since historically most civilizations seem to have pretty much universally interpreted the universe in a religious context that includes god or gods.. perhaps we are hardwired to do so.

There is some functional MRI evidence that seems to support that theory.. but for the life of me i can't remember where it is and am too compelled by the sunshine today to go search for it.

I am with CClarue... i think there is a celestial gardener up there :))) and i want to be outside enjoying their creation

Ken I was waiting for your input! I love it...Gravity. I just picture you on a rooftop with a motorcycle.

I believe in gravity.

And it shapes my actions. (as well as my spine as I get older)

While there is much known about how it works, the science is still in the competing theory stage of understanding it. The mystery remains.

My faith in it was shaped by many failed attempts to defy its influence.

And by crashing several motorcycles.

---

While I am not religious, I will fight for your right to worship as you choose until the point where it starts to effect and encumber those who do not worship the same way or don't worship at all.

That shouldn't be so hard to do but many Christians cannot seem to see that limitation.

That is why the separation of church and state has to be fought for just as hard as the freedom of worship which is based on the same clause in the constitution and supported by case law and the 14th amendment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

The "establishment of religion" clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect "a wall of separation between church and State."

Those who call themselves Christian need to carefully examine the memes and theocratic rhetoric that are creeping into mainstream churches in the last few decades and reject and rebuke those like Driscoll who spread the lies and misrepresentations about the founding fathers and the oppressive state + religious societies of the period preceding and concurrent with the revolutionary period.

http://www.liarsforjesus.com/

The separation of church and state is what has allowed all churches and religions to flourish in this country when religious identification in all other non authoritarian countries has steadily fallen in the same period.

But that is not enough for some.

They want to not be criticized while they are undermining the secular foundation of this "Great experiment" as well.

Your faith or the lack is your business and all are free to express their opinion within the guidelines laid out by the owners of this forum.

But in the political realm, it would be a good idea for both believers and non believers to vigorously defend the Establishment Clause and the Constitution from those who would "tear down that wall".

Those who do not share my belief in Gravity, I can only hope to avoid being in their path when they fall.

WSD,

You made total sense, lol. As best as can be made out of Jung.

I did a great dream workshop in Eugene several years ago but have never been able to do it on my own without getting either hokey or too analytical.

I liked MDR because it was his own story interpreted by him.

fun.

:)

"...I cant look at all the flowers, trees, mountains, animals and people and believe that this all came about by chance."

So instead you believe some long haired old white guy sitting on a cloud waved a magic wand and made it all appear over the course of seven days. Interesting.

"...faith is a person's way of leaning into and making sense of life."

Very true. Faith is a valid and important concept and exists independently of organized religion.

"...either means that humanity was hardwired to perceive the universe in a like manner or that there is something greater there that we may only be able to comprehend as God."

Here you are offering a false choice. there are many ways to comprehend the mysteries and energies of the universe without winnowing it down to either/or... wiring or "God".

"...i suspect the only real truth lies in how we individually make sense of our own universe."

Once again,very true. the sadness comes in when groups of people (organized religionists) decide that only their truth is real and everyone has to believe in it or they go to another fairy tale place that's real hot.

Dobro..

if reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.. then for me Christianity is reality... because i stopped believing in it for a long time and it didn't go away:)

which ties to the definition of faith that WestSeattleDood presented from James Fowler's "Stages of Faith". .. great book btw... which points to the idea that each individual's reality and experience of faith though universal is unique "" faith is not necessarily religious, nor is it equated with belief. Rather, faith is a person's way of leaning into and making sense of life. Faith is the dynamic system of images, values, and commitments that guide one's life. It is thus universal: everyone who chooses to go on living operates by some basic faith""

like westseattledood it has been a while since i read much Jung and i haven't read "Memories, Dreams, Reflections" .. i will put it on my list. I really enjoy reading endstage reflections from deep thinkers... i always learn something new about the way i look at the world from them.

For me, Christianity is the framework upon which i have built my faith... in a different culture it could have been another... but it is as good a framework to hang my belief system upon as any... and it seems after much resistance... the best for me.

You are welcome to believe it is all a fairy tale.. but the essence of those fairy tales is universal... which either means that humanity was hardwired to perceive the universe in a like manner or that there is something greater there that we may only be able to comprehend as God.

As for those "days" .. well 6000 years must have seemed like an eternity to those who transcribed the Bible.. we are only now beginning to realize how shallow our own concept of time history is on this planet... but the truth of the concept of days.. the circuit of the moon around the earth.. in relation to eternity... turns out to be much longer than we thought... and still may be yet another failure of language.

The more i learn the less certain i am about all that we call factual... having seen more than one truth debunked and debunked again in my lifetime.

i suspect the only real truth lies in how we individually make sense of our own universe.

Dobro the law was invented by men to control others. Sin is a personal control of one self because the only person i am accountable to for my sin is me. I am accountable to god because i choose to be not because other men or people make me or take me to court if I tell a lie. Personally I cant look at all the flowers, trees, mountains, animals and people and believe that this all came about by chance.

The Bible is a book of fairy tales in which some of the stories teach lessons. It is not the "word of God" it was written by men and has been translated and re-translated many times. Nobody came back from the dead, the world wasn't created in 7 days, the earth is older than 6000 years, and "sin" is a concept invented by men to control others.

Religion exists because humans are social and seek community and historically communities have come together around these fairy tale concepts that have many names but spring from the same need. Unscrupulous people will use these fairy stories to gain fortune, power, etc. and have since the beginning of time.

You can have all the benefits of community without having to believe fairy tales or pretending a Middle Eastern carpenter died for your fake sins. Have the courage to believe in yourself, your friends and family, and the positive energy of the same universe that gives us gravity and electricity.

Reality is that which,
when you stop believing in it,
doesn't go away." -Phillip K Dick

Enater-

Yeah, I did and some other Jungian type stuff about a zillion lifetimes ago. I think it was kind of a popular thing to read back then - along with Joseph Campbell's stuff. Kind of a "deep structure" phase, if you will, to symbols both comparatively across cultures and their genesis. I kind of felt like I was walking into walls, literally, during that
exploration. :). I think the gist of what I learned from Jung and
Campbell was that one, it is just not safe for me to do too
much dream analysis ;) and two, there was something else
important perking around the cultural mythologies - the
stunning and compelling continuity across cultural (including
religions) boundaries of motifs, symbols and stories.
Comparative religion always fascinated me, even as a very
young woman. But Jungian theory was not where I would find
my sense-making theory. I think I at least respect his
importance to many. And, I am somewhat in awe of "depth" psychologists and creatives who are certainly spiritual and who find meaning in his symbology.

Wow. Hope I made some sense. And, I hope there are no more damn typos. ;)

Just cuz you brought Jung up, I'll probably take a look at his book again. It's been awhile.

WSD,

..."everyone who chooses to gobon living..." lmao. It just fit in a funny way.

But seriously, thanks for the rec. I'll check it out for sure. Sounds right up my alley.

This is OT, but have you ever read, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections"? Carl Jung's autobiography. That was a life changing read for me. Just wondering what you thought about it, if you read it.

Cheers.

I'm done on the Driscoll, too. I think the scope of the argument is off and at a certain point it becomes like beating your head against a wall. :(

:)

JoB my comments weren't directed towards you and I actually find your pursuit of faith, non-offensive. It's what works for you. As it should be. And you should check out the UCC churches. They're a pretty cool community.

And of course I don't think we are all any one thing. I was extrapolating from CC's insistence that "We are all sinners. Period." Maybe she is. But please don't presume to know what I am or am not with any amount of authority.

Especially while simultaneously using the tired argument, you can't prove there is no god any more than I can prove there is. If that's the case, stop with the this is what I know, premise. It's nothing more than what you want to believe.

There is a book by James Fowler, "Stages of Faith". If you have read Piaget, Erickson, Tillich, Niebuhr, Smith - those are the theorists Fowler synthesized from. I would suggest that if you are not familiar with developmental psychology or do not respect it as a relevant or legitimate intellectual inquiry, you might not appreciate his work, but I could be wrong. I am very often wrong.

Before anybody jumps on me and makes assumptions, this is how "faith" is defined in the context of his developmental
model for how all people find meaning and value. In this
model or theory," faith is not necessarily religious, nor is it equated with belief. Rather, faith is a person's way of leaning into and making sense of life. Faith is the dynamic system of images, values, and commitments that guide one's life. It is thus universal: everyone who chooses to gobon living operates by some basic faith"

This is a theory. So take it as such, but one which for me, in the years since I read it, has fostered a frame through which I view religion, spirituality, mental health, intellectual growth and maturity and aging. I see things very differently since I read this. There is, in this theory, room for religion, agnosticism and athiesm. Any human being in the process of living can be viewed through the lense of the six stages of Fowler's human development theory. I "believe" in the brillance of this framework, not as a substitute for any personal religion, nor as an absolute truth, but for what the theory offers in terms of compassion, intellectual growth and intellectual honesty and our shared humanity.

I am NOT going to participate any further on this thread. I
just want to put the title, author and six-stages out there for those who might be interested.
Stage 1: Intuitive-Projective Faith
Stage 2: Mythic-Literal Faith
Stage 3: Synthetic-Conventional Faith
Stage 4: Individuative-Reflective Faith
Stage 5: Conjunctive Faith
Stage 6: Universalizing Faith

Kind of heady reading, but relevant to what I think is really universally important. And, remember, it is just a theory. A working model that is NOT proslytizing but rather attempts to be objective and find a common thread through the development of all of humanity .

That's all. I've said my piece.

jamminj..

not all Christians want to convert everyone to Christianity... and i agree that Christian denominations or churches don't have the corner on faith.

when i finally recovered from my protestant upbringing i was astounded to find my faith had survived .. i didn't believe it possible.

That doens't mean yours will or even should.. just that mine did.

chef..

we haven't been talking about the "brainwashing creepy zealot" for some time now.. and you'll get no argument from me over that description. It fits what i think of him pretty clearly.

but i am really enjoying the exchange of perspectives.

sorry you aren't.

bluebird..

i don't have a personal sense of entitlement about sharing what i believe.. and i am definately a christian.

i haven't noticed that Christians get any kind of pass for saying anything that has to do with Christianity here... in fact, it took me a long time to mention my own beliefs here because i really didn't want to take so much grief for my own private faith.

I don't assume that Christianity is the answer for anyone but myself... in fact i am pretty sure that it is not the answer for a lot of people... there are simply too many other religions that resonate with their members. I don't even assume that faith of any kind is the answer for everyone.. it may simply be too large a leap for some to take anything on faith.. and they may not need that in their lives.

i don't know if Christianity would be good for you. You obviously have had a lot of negative exposure.. as had I. It wasn't right for me for a very long time and i don't know that any church will ever be right for me. But, my faith is right for me now.

I said that it ain't easy being christian because there are many here who paint all Christians with the brush of their own least positive encounter .. or who insist on telling us what we believe and who we are... or that what we believe is just plain stupid or self serving.

Just like any other group we are about as diverse as it is possible for humans to get and may share nothing more than faith... and a category.. Christian.

I resent being lumped with those who are trying to turn the Bible into a political tract simply because they are also called Christians... or with the new age Christians.. or with ....

cclarue did decide for herself and wrote what she believed to be true...

as did someone else when they stated unequivocally that the bible was just a bunch of fairy stories...

stating your own truth is not the same thing as sharing "because it's for our own good and god is on their side"...

i share because it is what i believe. I am as interested in what you or anyone else who writes here believes. The views of others aren't likely to change my mind about my own faith.. but they are likely to change my perspective.

my heart goes out to you if you were stating your truth when you stated that we are all child rapists...

i so hope it's not true... for reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

This guy is a brainwashing creepy zealot - why are you all giving him so much attention?? Let it die.

"But as a christian if he can get that many people to church and hopefully to jesus than of course to me that is good. "
.
to me that is the deal breaker there when it comes to churches. It's not just living the life of jesus, it's converting as many as you can, and however you can. missionaries define churches.
.
Its not christianity that has a hard time here, its the desire to 'convert' as many as you can, that to be saved you must conform to whatever religion.
.
sorry, a church is just another way to control people and dictate how one should live. Every church has their rules and if you don't follow, you will not be saved.
.
This is from a recovering catholic..
.
having FAITH does not mean you must follow a church.
.

Assigning a negative and announcing what we all are, as fact, is offensive. It's not a personal declaration of your faith. An opinion. That would begin with I BELIEVE I AM...

Christians have a hard time here. Oh please. They are the only group that gets a pass saying crap like that.

"We are all child rapists. Period."

That okay with everyone? Because I personally know it to be true, therefore you shouldn't object?

Christians have this elevated sense of entitlement in what they can "share" because it's for our own good and god is on their side.

How about we decide for ourselves and christians keep the absolutes to themselves or those that request to hear about it.

Ellenater I have not read the book. Job you are right it aint easy being a christian here. but i have heard that what is good is not always easy. I have to go get my daughter bye for now all.

it ain't easy being a Christian here.. even for a bleeding heart liberal with no trouble standing up for what she thinks:)

i did the great american religion tour and ended up where i started.. but without the church interpreting it for me.

i have been meaning to give those Unitarians a try though...

cclarue,
Well, I DO think what he is doing is really harmful. You can assess someone without being an a$$ about it. Judging is putting someone in a box in which you come out superior. We're not doing that. We're just saying he makes us uncomfortable because he is a self deluded liar (at best). I actually feel a lot calmer when I say stuff like that out loud. It concerns me that you think he is doing a lot of good because (it sounds like you are saying) anyway you get someone to Christ is a good thing. But I am saying, just because you use the words, doesn't mean that's what you are doing. And that's what Merton was saying. Driscoll is actually MORE dangerous than someone who professes their disdain for Christ.

So we totally disagree on that point!

And I have no problem with you saying what you think people are missing out loud. You have the right to say that. Who cares if others disagree. That is your belief system and I think you should be proud of it and stand up for it if that is what you believe. But what you really said sort of smacks of martyrdom. And that is the one part about Christianity that I really cannot get behind. It goes back to the original sin argument which I am going to skip except to say this: Maybe it is a misinterpretation of the word, "sin". In that same Merton book (New Seeds of Contemplation) he touches on it and I think he nailed it when he pointed at sin as really being the illusion of the self. As in ego. I loved that because that is a Buddhist concept that I relate to. So if original sin is the idea that we are separate, when in fact we aren't, I can get behind that. The other stuff about being "bad" is pure and total BS (IMO).

Cheers.

Ellenater I dont know mark driscoll, i chose not to try his church because of the face on a screen thing. i want to be in the same room as my pastor. But as a christian if he can get that many people to church and hopefully to jesus than of course to me that is good. I am not concerned with judging him because i have no idea what is in his heart. and who am i to judge. thats not my job he has to answer to god for himself and i cant be worring about how their conversation will be at the pearly gates so to speak. I need only worry about what my conversation with him will be . There is a ton of spiritualism floating around seattle so i believe people are looking for something because they are missing something. I think i know what they are missing but i dare not say it outloud.

This is, for the most part, a really great discussion. I really like it. It's kinda different from some of the other discussion I have seen on here recently in that people are actually sort of listening to each other and actually responding to what others have said. So, thanks. I am really enjoying reading all of your comments.

Walker, I agree with you most. And damn, well said!

JoB, and Bluebird, you both have some excellent points.

cclarue, I agree with your take on moderation and balance. I also like that you took the time to explain things. People do get into their corners and that is usually that. But aside from the money issue, Driscoll really does totally creep me out. These things are intuitive for me. He just rubs me the wrong way. He is "off". Those earlier Thomas Merton quotesI posted explain it better than I can. I was not raised as a Christian so the whole thing is kinda bizarre to me. But I am starting to get it. I relate more to Buddhism but also think white people (I am white) often use it for self serving purposes, overlooking some important cultural and historical aspects. That New Agey crap is off putting. But I think that the act of having faith may be more important (assuming it's belevolent) than what one has faith in. I think there is a state of love or compassion that cannot be reached in any other way. So it really doesn't matter to me who someone worships. The point of that long winded response is to say that I am not automatically against Christianity due to childhood or cultural baggage or whatever. But Driscoll is bad news. That said, the only Christian churches I relate to, personally, are the UCC. They seem to represent The Bible in a way that gels and they are hands down the most inclusive. UCC had the first Latino, Woman, African American, and Gay and Lesbian pastors. THAT is cool and that is something I can get behind. So if I had the cohones, I would march right over to Mars Hill and lead those nice Christians right over to Fauntleroy UCC (the closest location.

That all said, I'm going Hindu. I like that elephant god and love cows. Seems like a good fit ;)