It took me several readings to figure out who the heck Tim is. Thanks Zenguy and GHO for my afternoon laugh.

GHO, I thought the same thing about Tim but figured everyone else wouldn't get it...that's why like you!

Ravensdale represent!

Does Tim know we speculated about his length? hehehe, sorry, so sophomoric, but some typos are just giggle worthy, thanks ;)

Seriously though, yes, a) most of Western Washington had too much time on its hands while snowbound b) the photo w/icicles does make it look a bit disturbing and c) there are a whole lot of dog lovers in WS and isn't it a little nice to know people were concerned?

Dogs are a hot topic here - there are plenty of threads to support that - and you might want to brace yourself for the breed vs. adopt debate that could start up at any moment.

Yeah, that sounds like the typical response when people abuse their animals and abuse their children...that it's no one else's business. I don't know why I've wasted so much time worrying about keeping my own dogs safe and healthy when it is apparently perfectly fine to leave them in a cold car in sub-zero weather while they're chewing and swallowing ziploc bags.

I am the breeder of that beautiful dog and you people have too much time on your hands waisting so much time speculating about the length of tim MYOB!!!!!! He didnt look distressed.

cj..

i have to agree with you about the potential...

but just because something could happen.. doesn't mean that it will...

One thing we can all agree on is that people should be more aware of how the weather could adversely affect their pets and remember that things always take longer than we think they will.. and make adjustments to the way we live to account for the circumstances... and protect those we love.

wait.. that's good advice even when if we weren't talking about pets:)

Maybe contacting the shelters, or a vet might shed some light on how many cases they have dealt with. It gets below 20 almost every winter here in Seattle (overnights when its clear) so there must be some evidence somewhere. People do need some edgumacating here because we don't always have snow and ice on the ground this long. But my lab loves the snow and I have drag her in out of it each day :)
Quit being cheap and buy them a coat!

I saw a lot tied up in the Junction yesterday as well. One on Calif. outside a hair salon (which appeared closed so maybe person was in pharmacy?).

The saddest though was the three LARGE poodles, barking, with the window open, in a car parked outside the Rocksport. Now, person may not have been in the Rocksport but....

I'm with CJ on this as well.

Last night (super snowy) I was shopping in the Junction... I saw MANY dogs tied up to posts while their owners shopped. They weren't furry wintery dogs...They were short-haired, shivering, skinny dogs. How would we feel if we were chained to a freaking POLE for 30 minutes in the snow/slush/freezing rain!?!

Seriously people, get a grip!

ScottB: Here's another: Four people are in the car with a dog. They're driving in freezing temperatures but with the heat on in the car they're cozy, even maybe sweating a bit. Their clothes are saturated with moisture from wet snow. The air inside the car is considerably more humid than the outside air on account of the warm, moist air from their respiration. They arrive at their destination, tell the dog to be a good boy, and exit the car. As the air inside the car cools and becomes less humid, the process of evaporation makes the temperature inside the car actually colder than the air outside.

JoB: They can make ANYTHING out of electronics and ballistic gel!

i say we call mythbusters. do they have a dog dummy?

cjboffoli,

Here's one scenario: Ground temperature has been below freezing for a few days, and a car's exterior temperature is also below freezing. A warm, moist front moves in, rain falls, then freezes after contacting the road and the car.

I would not in fact be surprised by hypothermia. I suppose "freeze to death" is a colloquialism, but the phrase seems more suited to Jack London stories than death by hypothermia without freezing.

ScottB: You're probably technically right about their use of the word. Though it is a pretty effective PR tool to get their idea across.

This discussion has me sufficiently intrigued about the physics of temperature on cars. Maybe we should try to get the Mythbusters on the case.

Still not sure I agree completely with your science. You seem to suggest that the limit to the temperature in and around the car could never go below the ambient air temperature. But consider how it is possible for ice to freeze on cars and roadways when the air temperature is technically above freezing.

Also, I'm not sure about your refrigerator, but the temperature in mine is set to 38 degrees. A warm blooded mammal could absolutely freeze to death at 38 degrees. In fact, you'd be surprised how quickly the human body can become hypothermic at temperatures that aren't even nearly that cold. Your core temperature only has to fall below 95 degrees for hypothermia to set in.

I think the ASPCA "refrigerator" thing is incorrect in a couple different ways. The most objectionable thing is the comparison itself.

Do they mean after the outside temperature warms up, the interior of the car will be colder than the outside air for a time? In that case, the car would act as a cooler, not a refrigerator.

Do they mean that a parked car with the engine turned off somehow cools the air inside the car below the outside air temperature?

If one is concerned about thermodynamics and transfer of heat from the car to air, then the worst that would happen is that the inside air temperature of the car would match the outside air temperature. A refrigerator cools air below the ambient air temperature.

An animal would not freeze to death in a refrigerator. An animal could freeze to death in a freezer.

ASPCA should just drop the reference to a refrigerator.

I agree with you wholeheartedly CJ.

JoB: You and I clearly disagree about the appropriateness of leaving a dog unattended in a car in frigid temperatures. So clearly your reaction to the notion is going to differ than mine. I'd guess you didn't mean to insult me by telling me how you think I should act. So I won't take it that way.

I simply don't have a lot of patience when it comes to the mistreatment of animals (or children for that matter).

I was in the vicinity of this car for 10-15 minutes. It was parked there when I arrived and it was there when I left. No one was popping in or out of anywhere for an errand. And the temperatures were well below freezing as it was midnight.

Everyone can sit back in the comfort of their heated houses and play the game of what if: What if the dog's coat kept it warm...what if the car was still warm...what if the owner was just running in for a second..

by the same logic: what if they owner was inside having a meal and was losing track of time...what if the dog was dangerously cold...what if the dog ingested the plastic baggie it had in its mouth..

From the ASPCA website:

"Never leave your dog or cat alone in a car during cold weather. A car can act as a refrigerator in the winter, holding in the cold and causing the animal to freeze to death."

JoB - I know you personally and I know that you care about people and animals and make cogent decisions. I know that you take very good care of your pets. So my thoughts were more in general - I just don't think there is evidence to support that leaving a pet in a car or outside in 25 degrees or less for more than a few minutes is sound practice.

With that said, I will have a dog in my Jeep today as I make my rounds because he is desperately missing his owners and I just can't leave him alone in his house again today. That means that he will be in my Jeep for short periods today while I visit cats, etc..... Could someone report me if they see it? Sure, and I guess I could see their concern. (although it will be warmer today)

I think that there are many of us that will do anything to make our pets happy and secure, including taking them to work and leaving them in cars vs. the emotional trauma that some pets face being left home alone in any weather. So I get why you and others may take their dogs with them. It's the irresponsible people that will drink in the bars and/or visit people and leave their dogs outside in extreme temp's that bothers me and posts that suggest that it may be ok to do that make me nervous.

Stay warm today and let me know if you need anything:) I'd be glad to help while I'm out and about:)

JoB- post 48

Well put. :)

mellaw6565

of course i heat my car before i leave my dogs in it in this weather... just like i blast the air frigid before i leave them in the car in the summer...

and if you leave them in the car long enough for their water to freeze.. and you always leave water for them.. it's way too long!

if i had avoided leaving my dogs in the car in freezing weather in Minnesota, they would have been left home from mid november through may... and since i can't leave these two home alone uncrated.. i wouldn't have left the house much all winter.

i drove my dogs cross country alone when i moved here so the dogs would be less stressed... and we stopped at every rest area so they could get out and sniff out the changes as we drove west.

I am exceedingly careful with my dogs... and i assume that most dog owners are as well.

I agree that it is a bad idea to indiscriminately leave dogs in vehicles for long periods of time in any weather.

but i know one lady whose only choice is to use her car as a dog crate while she works... she parks under cover and comes out to exercise him on the hour... and if she is at work today.. he will be in the car outside today.

in general terms.. i would say that's something that really shouldn't be done.. but it is the only way she can keep this dog... and she has thought it out so it works for them.

Another home isn't an option for him since he came from a very bad home and is not adoptable.

Just as in general terms i think it's a bad idea to leave a dog tied up outside.. but Rykite has made it work for her and she cares enough about her dog to make sure his feet are taken care of and he is warm.

I am not advocating abusing dogs at all... and i certainly think that we should all keep their best interests in mind in everything we do if we agree to share our homes with them...

More than once i have tracked an owner down in a store or restaurant when the dog tied outside was in distress... i have called the police when i saw an animal locked in a car in distress... and i have stopped to give countless dogs a friendly word or a pat or water.

but... i think that automatically assuming that the owner of a dog that isn't in distress but is in what we consider to be an unsafe environment is abusive is taking our valid concern too far.

That doesn't stop me from warning people walking their dogs in commercial districts to watch out for deicing compounds because they can be very hard on a dog's foot.. or from asking someone if their dog would like a drink when i see the dog panting and i have water.. or...

and some of the people i have spoken with had no problem telling me what an interfering old busybody i was:)

i think posting the pic and warning that this is not good weather to leave a dog out is a very good thing...

but assuming the owner wasn't being careful of their pet and condemning them without knowing more is maybe not so good...

maybe i have worked with too many abused kids and pets... you have to assume the best intentions and teach them step by step how to add more information to their decision making process to be successful. if you don't.. they just become resentful and at best you just made your job that much harder.

A gentle reminder is so much more likely to be heard than condemnation...

i know :))))) i deserve to be reminded of that regularly...

sometimes there is such a wide gap between what we know and what we do ;~>

Why don't you guys enhance this picture, take the plate number down, and make a damm complaint to the police.

Cheers to you too Mr. Hiney.

JoB - even though you may have experience with leaving your dogs outside in northern climes, it still doesn't make it sound practice any more than leaving your animal in a car in extreme temps.

I would really like to see any evidence, experts or statistics that back up your claim that it is ok to leave your dog in the car when the temp. is under 25 degrees, unless it's only for a few minutes and the car has been heated inside.

Sorry, but I can't agree with you on this one.

Cait, he is smart - in a very goofy way!
.
Some of you may have seen him in the Junction and thereabouts. He has a foot injury (he was hit by a car a year ago - horrible, but we're glad only his foot was injured) and the vet suggested that he should wear dog-boots on rugged ground to protect the damaged foot. Additionally, though he's a lab mix, he gets cold in the snow, so we got him a polarfleece & canvas coat. People actually point out their car windows when they see him going by - a large dog in boots and a coat is not something we see every day, and everyone gets a good chuckle. I've decided to not be embarrassed about it, but I do find myself telling people "It's because he has an injured foot" to avoid saying "I'm not the kind of person who dresses her dog!"
.
But alas, I do dress my dog.
.
In his favor, EVERYONE pets him when he's dressed like that. He's big enough that sometimes people are afraid of him, but when he's wearing boots and a coat, well, they laugh at him more than being afraid at him. He seems to take it good naturedly enough....as long as he keeps getting pets.

I love how dogs can be so crafty when it comes to getting attention. Getting pets all night long and then looking forlorn so he can get more pets later. Smart :)

My dog is curled up on his dog bed beside me right now. Today he was mad at us when we went for a walk without him, but we went to EBB and I didn't want to leave him tied up outside in this weather. (In "regular" weather e.g. not too hot and not too cold, I tie him up for short periods outside of shops with great regularity. I sometimes watch out coffee shop windows to see what's going on, and what is going on is that he is getting pets from every single passer by. He still manages to look lonely when I come out, however! (He does the same if I go into another room for a few minutes and then return.)
.
I don't want to judge the dog in the car here because i dont' know the story and the fact that the engine area was still melted makes me hope that the owner was just running in somewhere. In general, I wouldn't leave a dog in a car in this weather for more than a few minutes.

UrbanFabulous...

i bet it was an expensive dog too...

careless man.

My man and I went to the Alki Cafe the other morning and a poor dog was sitting in the snow shivering. We mentioned it to the waitress and she said she didn't know whose it was. About 45 minutes later we saw some guy in $200 jeans come out and get him.

cjboffoli:
"...you're telling me that if this car were sitting in the sun on a 100 degree day with no wind, that it would feel exactly the same in the car if it were a 100 degree day with a 50 mph wind?"

No.

Your point about wind carrying away heat from an inanimate object is valid (you may be overestimating the effect) but that is not the same thing as the wind chill factor.

Wind chill factor is basically a chart that has wind speed on one axis and temperature on the other axis. It indicates the effect *on exposed human flesh* that wind at different speeds has.

Regarding the Standard Poodle in the car: The wind is not acting directly on the dog, so I suspect the dog is not affected so much as it would be if it were exposed directly to the wind.

P.S. I didn't leave my dogs in the car during the middle of the day yesterday when I was inside various stores. My dogs are not suitable for winter weather, so they were safely at home. I agree that during these temperatures, it cools off very quickly inside the car. The *engine* cools off pretty quickly. :(

cj..

"driving your car home after a night drinking at the pub is probably a bad idea with or without a dog in the car ;-)"

we can definately agree on that!

JoB: The reason the wind IS indeed relevant is that it is acting on the surfaces of the car. Cars have windows on all sides and glass is an excellent conductor of heat. Any body heat radiated into the passenger compartment by that single dog would be wicked away by the cold acting on the glass from the outside. As the wind blows over the car this process is accelerated. It was very gusty last night. But even without the wind 23 degrees for a dog in an unheated car is cold. And it doesn't take very much poking around on the web to find opinions from vets that concur with this.

I'm not so sure that movement has anything to do with representing the dog's level of comfort or stress. However, the dog was not vocal or excited and didn't show any outward signs of panic.

I spent 20 winters in the frigid temperatures of New England (four of them in Northern NH) and leaving domestic pets (we're not talking sled dogs here) in cars in extreme temps was simply something that was never done.

And driving your car home after a night drinking at the pub is probably a bad idea with or without a dog in the car ;-)

This is really off topic sorta but the other day on the way to the bus stop I passed a car that had a door open (?!). Some neighborhood kitties had taken up residence on the back seat and dash. I thought it was funny. That is all.

cait...

i would worry far more about the plastic dangling from the poodle's mouth.

since it's unlikely any pet owner would give his dog a plastic bag to play with.. the fact that the dog had the bag probably indicates that the owner doesn't leave this dog home alone uncrated... too much mischief... I would bet they don't leave it alone in the car too long either:)

however, plastic bags are as deadly for dogs as they are for children. Besides the choking hazard.. they can easily turn into a bowel obstruction... and that can kill.

cj...

i too worry about those who don't take good care of their pets.. but i am not sure that i always have enough info to make a judgment...

That said...

it is good to remind people that cold weather is potentially as dangerous as hot for dogs left in cars...

and maybe to remind people that their best friends are typically curious creatures.. so anything they don't think is safe for their pets should be carefully locked away where they can't get to it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urPngC2dNQ4&feature=related

LOL! That is always amazing when you throw boiling water into the air in cold weather.

I'm hopin' you're right JoB - it'll make me feel better :)

cj.. scott is right.. the wind chill doesn't matter as much inside the car as it does out.. unless you don't have a tight car with closed windows.. then it could matter.

cait.. there were icicles on the bumper but they could easily have been there from being parked before the car was driven... especially if the car was driven only on city streets. the hood was cleared in a way that would indicate melt from a hot engine and there was no visible ice around the perimeter... so my guess would be that it hadn't been there long... but it's all just a guess.

If the dog is still actively moving around there isn't generally much to worry about as far a temp goes... not always true.. but mostly.

as for a poodle's coat...

poodles have coats that are more like human hair and less like a dog coat.. especially less like dogs that have double coats like my shibas or labs for that matter...so even without a poodle cut, it is likely to get cold faster than some... it wouldn't be as easy to leave them in a car in the cold for any length of time.

my dogs could be kenneled outside in the snow and as long as they have a doghouse, they would be fine. i know because the younger was kenneled outside in rural minnesota before he came to live with me and it gets really cold there...

There are so many factors that go into how safe it is for pets to be left in cars in any weather... i have to be extra careful for mine in the heat...

I hope for the pup's sake that his owner was in picking up food.. they do feed people there...

that said... leaving your dog in the car while you drink in the pub is irresponsible in any weather...

and so easily avoided if you drink at the Beveridge Place Pub where your well behaved dog is welcomed:)

btw.. for those who wonder.. i learned a lot about pet safety in cold weather during 5 cold winters minnesota... it was often below 0.

yes.. if it is cold enough, you can throw a hot cup of coffee in the air and watch it freeze before it hits the ground.

Scott: The windows were indeed up. But you're telling me that if this car were sitting in the sun on a 100 degree day with no wind, that it would feel exactly the same in the car if it were a 100 degree day with a 50 mph wind? If you're right you could be on to something big. ;-) Just think...the laws of thermodynamics upended right here on the WSB!

JoB: I accept your point about different dog breeds being better equipped for cold. And there was certainly a difference in temperature between midnight last night and mid afternoon today. I know you to be an intelligent, conscientious person. I have no doubts you care for your pets well. But there are clearly people out there that perhaps don't value their animals as you do. I suppose it all comes down to a choice. I personally would not leave an animal unattended in a car in extreme (very hot or very cold) conditions.

Well as someone whose dog gets to (has to?) stay at home when I run errands, it's not something I would do. However, like she said, her doggies had a buddy to keep them warm. But from the looks of this picture the dog was distressed and judging from the icicles it had been there a while.

I think it's pretty obvious Jo knows it's not an ideal situation but I'm not going to help you fuel what seems to be a personal vendetta against Christopher. No one should leave their dogs in their car in this weather but if you should have to, make sure they have a way to keep warm and something to do while they're in there. And don't leave them for very long.

Wind chill factor is not relevant to the dog that was inside the car (assuming the windows were closed) because the dog was protected from the wind. Temperature is relevant.

Depending on whether or not and how the Standard Poodle was clipped, it could have been comfortable for some unknown (to me... perhaps known by his owner) period of time. The Poodle was developed originally to be a water retriever.

Oh, cj, you have no problem taking potshots at other people you don't know. I am not teflon, and neither are you. My plug is why is it so much fun on these blogs to rip into other people who can't defend their actions, but its ok to rip posters who defend them.

Cheers (just for you Zen)

Kayleigh2: I think everyone is quickly learning that with this guy a policy of not feeding the troll is probably the best way to go. I learned a long time ago that complete strangers who dislike you for the wrong reasons are the ones you never have to worry about.

I find that the "Ignore" feature is marvelous.

Mr. H, do you have a problem with cjboffoli personally? I don't think he deserves the pot shots you're taking.

Cait, do you think JoB is cruel?

Right, so posting their photo, car license and all is the way to handle it. Then accuse and talk trash about them without them being able to defend their actions. Maybe they were visiting the offices above Matador. Ready! Fire! Aim!

Talk about passive agressive!!

i have to report that i left my two shibas in the minivan in the junction for nearly 45 minutes today.

when i returned they were curled up sleeping and their body heat had kept the car warmer than outside.. it was still well above 30 degrees.

I admit, these two have arctic coats and spitz tails to bury their noses in.. much the same as wearing a fur lined parka hood...

but still...

they were warmer than i was...

we did walk them first.. and we returned to the car to sit with them while we waited for my daughter to finish visiting her friend...

but they were in the car alone..

and i am quite sure someone probably thought we were monsters if they noticed the dogs.

This is one of those things that really is an individual judgment call... but when you have dogs like mine who prefer the snow... it's an easy one to make.

Not all breeds would do as well.

But generally speaking if you are the kind of person who takes their dog with you, you are also likely to be very aware of their environment...

i would never leave my dog unattended outside.. in any weather. I wouldn't trust strangers not to feed my dog something harmful.. or turn it loose.. or....

That's why they are always safely locked in the car.

Ok Mr. Hiney - thanks for the advice. Geez......

Generally confronting someone dumb enough to do this ends badly. If you're cruel enough to leave your dog in the car, who knows how they'd react. I think you did the right thing - I just hope someone called the authorities.

So you are guessing. Why not go inside and and bust on them, instead of here?

They were parked just outside of Matador and it was the only thing open on that side of the block.

That dog needs a good cuddle :( I would have busted the window open and taken it home with me to sit by the fire. :(

BTW, how did you know that they were by the fire at Matador? Guess??