Too bad Pat Paulsen is dead...

I\'m voting J.P.Patches for President!

lou - You\'ll fit in perfectly here on this forum.

Welcome.

Still somewhat new to WS. What other nut-job-fascist-business-owners should I beware?

PS: Are you kidding me with the Obama v. Hitler debate? Obama would kick *ss in a smackdown! : )

excuse me. that should have read \"get screwed\" not \"be screwed.\" And WHO is FM?

Ken,

i know you have an impressive mind.. but i think you must have some pretty impressive search skills too:)

thanks for the bedtime chuckle.

Perfect, Ken.
Hello American Eagle. The more patriotic the name, the more you know you are going to be screwed.
........speaking of things like patriotic vans.

I got your irony (and satire) right here:

\"It\'s absurd to compare Bush to Hitler, I mean Hitler used the burning of the German parliament building to declare a \'war on terrorism\'. He even failed to win a majority vote but was installed in office anyway! After the terrorist attack, Hitler railroaded the German legislature to sign a decree that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus! After that, the German police could intercept mail, wiretap phones, imprison suspected \'terrorists\' without charges and sneak into people\'s homes without warrants! I totally fail to see the comparison to Bush!

Hitler was really an evil man. He had total control of the radio and the newspapers. Unlike America under Bush, the people in his country were told only positive things about him and his government. He didn\'t allow any criticism of his policies, and if anyone dared to say something negative, there were called an unpatriotic traitor. That could never happen in America with Mr. Bush as president!

Hitler even rewarded his political supporters in German industry with lucrative government contracts to build detention camps and military installations! I can\'t imagine Bush ever doing something like that either. The people who are comparing Bush to Hitler just need to get their facts straight!\"
--F.M. (January 2004)

I think the irony is supposed to be that we \"libs\" who have been called intolerant and bigoted and .... are complaining about Hitler when we are oh so hitlerlike ourselves. I\'ve done so much opposition research that I actually can think like them--sometimes causing me to wash my mind out with strong soap. :-)

NR, if I won the prize, please donate it to the IWW for me.

Aw damn, now I\'m blushing.

I suppose there would be some irony if I hadn\'t mentioned that I in no way support Hitler. :P

smart teenager.

JoB, I remembered him/her from the WASL thread a couple of months ago. Self identified as a teenager and was given a hard time by a lot of people who didn\'t believe the age.

JT.. i think you may be right about the source of any possible irony...

but do we know that caducueus is a youth? we assume so because of the statement that this is their first eligible election... but we don\'t know.

as for the prize.. i grant you one full tilt ice cream cone.. let me know when you want to collect.

I\'m going to guess it has something to do with a youth (Caduceus) debating the merits of Hitler\'s political prowess, with adults, and the quote that began the thread \"he who hath the youth.....

If I\'m right do I win something?

I\'m getting a headache trying to find the irony. If it\'s philosophical, it\'s certainly hanging on a very thin thread. Why don\'t you just spell it out.

NR, clearly we\'re all too stupid to see the irony. Or perhaps just disinterested. Perhaps you wish to enlighten us?

I\'m pretty sure this will be a big NO, but can anyone else see the irony in this thread?

It\'s pretty funny (if you can see it).

Cad - Glad to see you again engaging in an intelligent, productive conversation.

LOL Charlabob...

his like-mindeds are the same as Hitlers..

those who believe they want what they are told they should want.

I didn\'t use GWB as an example because I don\'t think his whatever-they-ares are \"like minded\". Tell me what GWB believes in. :-) No don\'t -- if I don\'t know after 7 1-2 years, I\'m thinking it\'s a stretch.

if we are giving American examples.. our current president comes to mind:)

what is misunderstood about Germany and Hitler is that his approval among his own people was not universal. granted his public approval appeared to be.. but there were many Germans.. even among his own high command.. who realized he was not serving anyone but himself.

If not for the internet... If you were to watch our press, you would think George Bush had America\'s approval too...

There is a tipping point that occurs in public opinion that i think comes long before simple majorities... and once that tipping point is reached, it is incredibly difficult to turn the perception of public opinion. George Bush benefited from that.. along with more than a few shenanigans...

i wonder what Hitler\'s approval rating would have been had there been independent polling once the war escalated and concentration camps began to become public knowledge. my guess is it wouldn\'t have been so good.

It\'s certainly something the german people are pretty much universally ashamed of today.. and not just because of world opinion.

Just as Americans are ashamed of some of what our administration has done in our name...

the german people were sold the same bill of goods about their war as we were sold about Iraq.. Slam bam, thank you mam... for the good of the country.

Five years later, how good did that look?

Fascism is an ugly thing, regardless of where it rears it\'s head.

\"I can\'t think of a leader (more specifically any American one) who had such a following of \"like minded believers\" (whether or not they are naturally like-minded).\"

George Wallace -- look him up

I find intellectual reasoned discussions of Hitler\'s power and motives and accomplishments hideously offensive on almost every level. That must be what we mean by, \"Never forget.\"

Jeannie,

i recently bought a little black dress... ok, it\'s knit, but the style could have come right out of my cocktail dress period...

i planned to wear it to one of the project runway viewings... maybe with a boa, tiara and flipflops... but have been too tired to go. maybe the next one ;>

btw.. you should have seen my hubby beam when i brought that dress home. we\'ll be doing a big dinner out one of these days soon.. no boa, no tiara, no flipflops :(

didn\'t know he could still look at me like that ;0

I live in cocktail dresses.

Well-put, JoB (re power and despots).

And thanks for the Salty\'s/cocktail dress memories. Does anyone (other than promsters) wear cocktail dresses anymore in Seattle?!

Caduceas...

I will give you that Hitler got results for a while..

but most of his ability to get things done had little to do with inspiration.. and a great deal to do with pandering to prejudice, exploiting the resentment in postwar Germany from losing the fist war and the lack of economic opportunity following it, indoctrination of children and intimidation.

and ultimately. he didn\'t deliver on his biggest campaign promise.. german supremacy.

I suppose the same could be said for Stalin... although ultimately that didn\'t turn out so well for him either... or Mussolini or even Saddam...

There is a huge difference between inspiration and the way that despots inflame prejudice... exploit resentment and intimidate to gain power over citizens.

whether that power is used for good or evil has little to do with the process by which one gains influence.

Jeannie..

my first meal at a Salty\'s was at the original in Portland.. and though it was not a prom.. it was part of a formal evening and i was wearing my very first cocktail dress.

the year? well. i don\'t think we need to go into that;)

Grammar note: It is absolutely, unquestionably \"affect,\" not \"effect,\" in this context.

Although I disagree with Caduceus, I appreciate that this is an intelligent, reasonable debate. Tryanny, intimidation, malice, hatred, and aggression do not make an effective leader.

Oh, and I think the food at Salty\'s is mediocre. It\'s a big hit with \"promsters,\" but I\'m a little past that age!

P.S. \"In Roman iconography ... [the caduceus] was often depicted being carried in the left hand of the Greek god Hermes, the messenger of the gods, guide of the dead and protector of merchants, gamblers, liars and thieves. Ironically, the caduceus has come to be used as a symbol for medicine, especially in North America.\"

not to mention that mindset is still alive and thriving not only in Germany, but here is the US. It\'s immoral to raise the spectre, especially if you think Hitler is the most brilliant politician in history. His acts, deeds and words can\'t be separated from the brutality of his reign.

Hp, yep...
And those \"personal leaps and bounds\",Cad, uh-huh...I would never be so presumptious. As, Zenguy said, the Germans have a lot to deal with; I don\'t think life\'s a bowl of cherries for Holocaust survivors ands their kin. Heck Hitler\'s cronies are still being rounded up as near as Bellevue. And history does seem to repeat itself; I\'d guess Mr. Bashir might be an ardent Hitler fan.
Point is, Kingen\'s sent a mighty message, and I\'m guessing that that message won\'t keep you from eating at Salty\'s.

I could be wrong but I looked it up on grammargirl and it should read \"affect\" but please correct me if I am wrong tia

AC

Feel free to contact me at

audioautomatica at gmail dot com

and I\'ll respond with the obvious answer to your question via e-mail since I am un-able to locate a private messaging system on this forum and this topic does not deserve to be de-railed any further.

\"He no longer effects us as an individual...\"
You sure about that? Who, exactly, are you speaking for?

As I stated JoB, I was never talking about his actions or whether or not what he did was good or bad.

I was talking about what he said he was going to do and what he actually \"accomplished\".

In comparison to most other politicians who make hundreds of unfulfilled promises and accomplish relatively nothing.

I was commenting on his faith and prowess in what he believed in, and how he actually acted.

Which is why he was such a threat to begin with, he wasn\'t just a regular politician.

This is my point, people concentrate on the negative of everything unless there isn\'t anything negative known.

There is good in everything, whether it\'s ridiculously obscure or it\'s logically simple enough that it\'s apparent right away.

You just have to be willing to look for it.

And again, just in-case someone missed my other posts, I do not believe Hitler\'s actions were in any way good or acceptable nor do I support what Hitler did.

And Zen, Hitler does not effect us as an individual, he effects us as a dark period in time that in turn effected a lot of people. What he did effects us now, not him as a person.

Caduceus,

had Hitler\'s political leadership been as great as you seem to think, he would have won the hearts and minds not only of his people but of all of the countries he \"assimilated\".

He won no hearts and minds.. but he sure did terrorize and propagandize his populace... and by propagandize.. i mean he lied to them and then sold his lies by controlling the media...

The problem with lies is that sooner or later people figure out they are lies... and terrorized people eventually look for any escape from terror.

Not all Germans bought Hitler\'s propaganda. His real success was with the Hitler youth.. that he successfully brainwashed and which grew up to bully their parents and to become the heart of the SS...

If the only experience you have had with democratic government is that of our current administration, i can see why you might think that is leadership..

but there really is a better way. Ghandi didn\'t terrorize anyone and yet he truly did rally his country... creating substantial change.

You cannot get that kind of support without picking a group to point the finger at and blame for all the countries problems unfortunately. Hitler picked the Jews and held them up as the common enemy, today we pick gays and muslims.

Hitler still affects us today, if you have ever spent time in Germany you know what I mean. It is a terrible burden that Germans carry even today, even for those that were not born at the time.

I disagree, simply because I can\'t think of a leader (more specifically any American one) who had such a following of \"like minded believers\" (whether or not they are naturally like-minded).

And excluding moral, good VS bad, etc...in the context of him setting \"goals\" and achieving however many he accomplished, I\'m sure he has been more successful in that sense. And only in that sense.

I do not support what he did, but if there were a presidential candidate who were positive/constructive version of him with equal prowess and ingenuity in what they believe in I don\'t think we\'d be complaining (as Americans).

And just to throw an example out here, they would torture prisoners in order to gain medical knowledge, most of that knowledge is still used today.

Finding good in the inherently bad isn\'t that strange of a concept. I had a New Patient Checkup this morning, I didn\'t scorn my new doctor for using practices coined by the Nazi\'s.

Anyhow I didn\'t mean to go way off-topic, I just don\'t see how everyone is being so angry just because of a single name. He no longer effects us as an individual and I\'m sure those who were effected by him have made personal leaps and bounds in their lives to fulfill their lives.

Regardless of who it\'s quoting, the quote holds true to the extent that it isn\'t impossible to take positivity away from it. And that people may be getting upset/angry when they could be gaining a wealth of growth instead.

I agree that language taken literally can hinder one\'s ability to understand and communicate. However, I don\'t think in this case taking Hitler\'s quote out of context changes his original meaning.

He wanted to control people\'s thoughts, not inspire them to greatness. In that sense, I do not believe \"his political leadership has yet to be surpassed.\" He had the cult of personality, but ultimately failed as a leader.

VG:

You can take the context of the quote however you like I suppose.

But if you are not able to find good in what was \"inherently\" bad, then you\'re missing out on a whole lot.

Ownership
2. the act of having and controlling property

(Note: On a political scale you do not deal with the public as individuals, so the word \"property\" fits a little less strangely in that sense)

If you inspire someone is that not a form of control? A form of positive control? Trying to steer a person\'s (or many persons) life into a more positive direction.

You can easily subjectify the quote (of Ghandi)

\"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.\"

And pretend Hitler used it as a metaphor for him dominating the world. If that were Hitler\'s quote, would it then be impossible to take good from it since the person quoted did despicable things?

Taking language literally will hinder your ability to communicate imo. For example, religious scriptures, jokes, songs, poetry, quotes etc.

If you can find minute inspiration in something askew than that shows you make an effort to grow as a person. I don\'t see anything wrong with that.

I suppose I see the glass half full.

\"He who owns the youth owns the future.\"

\"He was able to rally his entire country, and inspire them to act.\"

\"Owning\" and \"inspiring\" are two completely different things. You seem to be endorsing the brainwashing of the youth. Sounds like a NeoCon to me.

\"Granted he did so in a grotesque and horrible manner. With a dreadful outcome simply because he had poor intentions.\"

Apparently you have never watched Star Trek. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

The quote is not the issue, it is true in fact that the future is in the children but the way it was done is the problem. They did not teach them they filled their heads with propoganda, much like the NeoCons of today.

Regardless of Hitler\'s warring decisions and actions, his political leadership has yet to be surpassed.

He was able to rally his entire country, and inspire them to act.

Granted he did so in a grotesque and horrible manner. With a dreadful outcome simply because he had poor intentions.

If you took Hitlers political savy and his leadership abilities and applied them to a constructive and well intended cause you would have nothing but success.

It\'s unfortunate that so many people are looking at who said the quote, rather than the actual quote itself and how it applies to today.

That quote is entirely correct and inspiring, regardless of who it is quoting. Since the person using the quote is obviously using it in the context of NOW, rather than when Hitler was trying to dominate the world.

Maybe you\'re thinking of this:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/118731_protest23.html

when one of Kingen\'s other ventures failed and disgruntled employees picketed Salty\'s because they had not been paid. Kingen was one of several partners to that venture, a casino in SeaTac.

Also in 2003 Salty\'s was late on a tax bill and tried to sue the IRS, but that suit was dismissed.

In the last three or four years, a number of class actions suits have been filed against Red Robin for labor violations (in California); I believe they have just recently been settled. Although as someone mentioned above, apparently Kingen is no longer involved in that company.

(76) I just sent an email to the folks listed in the \"contact\" message -- I don\'t expect much.

Ace, was there a big flap about workers\' rights or treatment 4 or 5 years ago? I seem to recall, but can\'t find it with the best of google.

If I get a response, or I don\'t, I\'ll let y-all know.

The Beach Broiler: union shop
Saltys: no collective bargaining

has anyone contacted Salty\'s about this? I am guessing the Public Relations manager might have some interesting thoughts: http://saltys.com/contact/#

Ahhh, the Beach Broiler...classy 70\'s, WS dining, naked statues and all.

Charla...he bought the old Beach Broiler in 1985, turned it into Salty\'s (the third one). Original Salty\'s is/was in PDX (1980), and then he opened the one in Des Moines at Redondo Beach in 1981. Time flies, huh...

When did Klingen buy Salty\'s? Is this (fairly) recent -- like in the past ten years?

Kingen is no longer associated with Red Robin. Besides the fact that they probobably made him rich about a year maybe two ago or so when the main office in Colorado bought out Kingens division here in the PNW. Dennis Mullen is the acting CEO of RR and has been since 2002.

So good news we dont have to go swear off Red Robin everyone!