Totally agree rainyday. Thanks for the link too. This quote stands out "It can be argued from the science: Physical discipline doesn't work over the long run, it has bad side effects, and mild punishment often becomes more severe over time. Opponents of corporal punishment also advance moral and legal arguments. If you hit another adult you can be arrested and sued, after all, so shouldn't our smallest, weakest citizens have a right to equal or even more-than-equal protection under the law? In this country, if you do the same thing to your dog that you do to your child, you're more likely to get in trouble for mistreating the dog."

I think one day, people are going to look back on physical discipline like we look back today at punishments (torture) in US prisons in the 18th century and smoking sections on airplanes in the 70's. Second hand smoke and open flames on a plane now is insane.

In my personal experiences (babysitting, sibling to 5, montessori teaching) I can tell you that physical discipline usually comes out adult frustration.

CONSISTENT non-physical discipline (100% follow-through on warnings, time-outs, loss of priveleges) is a VERY effective method. Children crave boundaries - and when done consistently and with respect, you get respect in return.

Timely Salon article:

"Spare the Rod"
http://www.slate.com/id/2200450/?GT1=38001

Thanks Nico. I hope comments here will help someone.
I was thinking about the quotes you put up yesterday from Mark Driscoll. They are so sad. Joking about abusing his daughter and the one about disciplining his son all day until he finally broke. It sounds like he is talking about breaking a wild horse which is sad in itself but we're talking about human beings here and his own flesh and blood. I just cannot understand how someone could have this outlook on raising children. Driscoll should be investigated for child abuse. It is frustrating to not be able to get through to people who are so immersed in the church that people like us are just dismissed as crazy or non christian.

WSrats and Zenguy, I hope that some of the Mars Hill parents will read your comments about the effects that punitive parenting had on you and your relationship with your parents.

People drastically underestimate how pain and fear impact children. The objects and people who are associated with that pain and fear become irreversibly linked. How many people get a nervous feeling in their stomach when they walk by wooden spoons or spatulas in the grocery store? Who wants to get that feeling around their own parents or family, or the resentment which comes when you know your life has been harmed?

I'm going to put in a link to the Gentle Christian Mothers here. They devote MUCH time to Ted Tripp and others like him.

If Mars Hill parents are reading here, please read some of the info from these Christian ladies. Some of them have left their churches because of Ted Tripp seminars just like the one we had here in Seattle.

Some of these mothers have used his techniques. They warn how you can get sucked in:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=4921.0

A quote from the Tripp thread:

"Probably not what you want to hear...but my husband and I recently left our church because they were sponsoring a Tedd Tripp seminar. It was last weekend. We tried for 6 months to raise concerns, and kept getting blown off. Finally things started rolling with responding to us, but we kept being told that we were "taking things out of context" (no specific examples given though of what we were taking out of context), that we should just submit to the authority of our church, and finally our pastor told my husband that he DID believe than an 8 month old could be rebellious and should be spanked. That was pretty much the end of discussion--we left."

Another quote by a Christian mom:
"I would agree that you should stay far away from the [Tripp] seminar. Immerse yourself in reading positive discipline books, articles, websites, etc. We are currently (I saw currently because it is a process and we have found it difficult to just make a clean break) leaving our church because of some similar things (but more related to Ezzo). Being around those kinds of people and teachings was absolutely detrimental to my relationship with my children and I have felt so much more healthy and clear-headed since getting away from that."

Yes, thanks Nico. I am glad to hear you chime back in to this topic which you started in another thread.

Once again, Mark Driscoll's comments are sickening..

I also like peoples observations about the perception of abuse and the abusee being the decider in the end, not the abuser. That is the case for me anyway... For example, I feel I was abused but my parents wouldn't think breaking a yard stick on me was abuse or stricking my brother in the groin so hard that I have blocked it out.. all of this because we were not asleep at 8:30 or whatever time it was. Insane.

Nico - I respect your knowledge of this issue. It's obvious that you know exactly what you're talking about. From what you have stated, I also understand your concern.

I appreciate you sharing more information regarding this issue. Thank you.

JoB says:
"and lastly i am concerned about what i observed myself that supported the church's attitude towards women that has been mentioned in this forum... and the father spoke exclusively and not very politely for the family. Even when couples were walking together, the the men spoke predominantly for the family."

Ted Tripp is part of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW). The council's main thrust is to encourage the subordination of wives and women and the leadership of husbands and men.

http://www.cbmw.org/

Tripp's teachings about the submission of children go hand-in-hand with the hierarchical obsessions of the CBMW.

https://www.cbmw.org/Resources/Articles/Embracing-God-s-Plan-for-Authority

Tripp instructs women that they can model submissive behavior to their children by subordinating themselves to their husbands in the presence of the children.

I have wasted vast swathes of my life on the Internet arguing with "complementarians", as they like to style themselves. I won't bore anyone here with the details, except to say that you cannot really reason with them.

Mars Hill loves the CBMW.

Here is my favorite damaging quote from the CBMW:

“God gave men, in general, a disposition that is better suited to teaching and governing in the church, a disposition that inclines more to the rational, logical analysis of doctrine and a desire to protect the doctrinal purity of the church..."

This may be one of the reasons that the fathers going into the Ted Tripp conference did not listen to you.

This response is to A Parent above:

A Parent says: "Mr. Tripp came across as a gentle, kind, witty man who really loves God, his children and grandchildren, and cares deeply about future generations"

A Parent, I must judge Ted Tripp by his written teachings. His book is his opinions without the veneer of his apparently charming personality. Long after he is gone, parents will be reading and using his book, and you know very well that it is being passed around like candy at Mars Hill.

There are many Christian parenting gurus who come across as folksy, funny, wonderful people. That is how they get a following. Many of these people teach abusive and harmful practices to children, but sweeten up the deal with ideas like "tying heart strings" or "finding your child's love languages".

People have testified time and time again that they got involved with a parenting guru based on the "good" parts of the teachings. In no time, they adopt all the dark, punitive practices and they are spanking their kids all day.

A Parent says: "I really wish the protestors would have attended the conference or somehow gone a little deeper on this subject, on the speaker, and Mars Hill."

Let's go deeper into Mars Hill and talk about a parenting sermon given by its main teaching pastor.

In the sermon, I heard Mark Driscoll testify to having "disciplined" his toddler son all day. At the end of this, he had a strange session where he held his son and began praying for him and confessing the child's sins. Finally, his little son "broke", in Driscoll's own words. I dread to think what this meant emotionally for his son. This is Trippism at its finest, imposing a deep obsession regarding motivations upon a small child who is developmentally probably not capable of really understanding what is going on.

In the same sermon, I heard Mark Driscoll joke about how his daughter's buttocks would shrink to "a quarter" of their normal size when he was preparing to spank her. He joked about how this was because of her fear of the oncoming slaps. Again, this is Trippism, with the daughter lying with her pants down across the father's lap, anticipating pain to be inflicted on her bare skin. Rather than feeling sorrowful about spanking his daughter, Driscoll made jokes about her fear reaction.

This sermon is available on the Mars Hill audio site.

Does that go deep enough into what Mars Hill teaches about disciplining children?

"JoB seems like a very nice person with a big heart, but I disagree with how this was managed, and how my church was portrayed in the process."

And here is the crux. The church does not want or like negative publicity. My guess is that all the chat on the member boards (and, honestly, the idea of locked down member boards really makes you wonder about the transparency of the church's practices) has been about the potential harm to the church's reputation. I'm sure that people like me are regarded as somewhat stupid, or heathen, and certainly not worthy of actually being listened to. Thank heavens that blogging helps me feel heard.

"... your blogs and protests will be a lot more reputable and meaningful."

Have I been disreputable? Really? How so?

A final word: I have no question that you love your children, and you are trying to do what is best for them. I believe that the parents at Mars Hill love their children deeply. However, if you are sincerely wrong about your parenting practices, your children will pay the price.

you guys are so brave.. this isn't easy to talk about.. not even when you are nearly 60. and i don't think it is ever forgotten.

Second that Zen.

Well put Zenguy!

Keep in mind that your child is the one that will decide if the hitting is discipline or abuse.

My mother spanked us a handful of times and I did not think it was abuse. In talking with her recently she said it only happened when she did not know what else to do. Obviously there are plenty of discipline alternatives now a days.

My father on the other hand was physically and verbally abusive. I stopped seeing him when I was thirteen, have only seen him a handful of times since and now my brother and I do not have any contact with him at all. He leads a very lonely life of his own creation.

Remember that the recipient of the hitting gets to decide what is abusive, perception is reality after all.

Are you willing to risk your entire relationship with your children?

Congrats Jablin! Some thoughts for you and A Parent as I am a parent too (of 2 young ones). For me, parenting is "the toughest job you will ever love." My wife and I have chosen to not hit and break the cycle of physical discipline in whatever degree it is applied. We give choices and there are consequences of lost privileges, etc and our approach has been very effective. Our kids have respect for us and know boundaries. They are full of self esteem, “play well with others”, do well in school, and are compassionate little citizens.

I am guessing you read earlier in the comments what JoB has been through growing up? I was abused to some degree as well. 30 years later it is still difficult for me to deal with. I literally cringe and avoid all situations when discipline is brought up in the media or among friends in conversation.

For me it has had a profound affect on my life. I suffer from things to this day that doctors and psychologists have stated is a long term effect, like depression, low self esteem, anxiety, anger, substance abuse, and relationship issues. I see my parents often and they are involved in my children’s lives but unbeknownst to them, I still hold their idea of discipline against them. If anyone chooses to hit, in any shape or form, this could happen to their child when he/she grows up.. is it worth the risk? I would characterize my struggle as on the mild side and I would not wish it on anyone, certainly not my own children.

I feel the way it was handled by JoB and others was extremely professional and non confrontational and reasonable based on what Tedd said in his book. From what I have read, it was J0B, JanS, and Kat who were not treated very kindly by some. I am quite conservative but when it comes to free speech, I am very liberal but even the most conservative viewpoint would acknowledge the right to their free speech and to peacefully assemble. I feel it is reasonable for people like JoB and I to be deeply moved by what we read in Tedd's book and it is logical for us to speak out on what we think is harsh, inappropriate treatment of babies and children, of all ages.

I respect how you feel and it sounds like you respect our side of the issue. I said some things about your church that I probably shouldn't have. I am sorry for that. Also, on one hand I feel it is important to make a distinction between what Tedd says in his book and Mars Hill Church but on the other, the church did invite him to speak so they are going to be associated with his comments. In other words, the church would not invite someone to speak who they did not like.

If I had to give a concession, I could see how a light to medium open hand slap on a clothed backside could get a 7 year olds attention, I don’t think anyone is disputing that choice that a parent has to make. What I and others are saying is that we do not think it is ok to inflict pain on bare skin, especially that of a baby/toddler. That is just unconscionable and illegal.

This has been great to talk about this with everyone and I feel like I am on the road to being a survivor vs. a victim. Thanks.

jablin..

i am glad you too had a positive experience ...

i am still unsure how spanking can be restorative and not punitive if the child is led to acknowledge their wrongdoing before you spank.

isn't acknowledgment and a discussion about what could have been done better every parent's goal in discipline?

what does spanking add to the mix that is restorative?

just something to think about as you discover the joys of parenthood.

The West Seattle Herald has published an article on this weekend's protests...

i did email them to correct the impression that there was yelling. there was no yelling on either side. There were a couple of verbal exchanges with one of our group who said that Jesus wouldn't hit... and a lot of curt nos and comments on my lack of Christianity ... but the only yelling was from passersby voicing their support.

http://www.westseattleherald.com/articles/2008/09/23/news/local_news/news05.txt#blogcomments

AParent

Thank you for your post, I attended the conference as well, as a future parent, due in April. I have to say that your detailed description is exactly what I would have said if I had the words. :)

AParent - Thank you for illustrating that, as adults, we are all capable of making our own decisions. I respect you posting honestly on this forum in support of your own opinions.

That took courage.

Aparent,

I am glad that what you got from Tedd Tripp's seminar was such good positive parenting information.

My only intention was to make sure that those who attended the conference got that kind of information about parenting.

If you passed by me and my merry band of three, you know that the only thing we offered was a handout concerning Christian parenting.

Unfortunately, the message you present was not the focus of the first edition of his book, which i read... and responded to... I wouldn't have been protesting if it had been.

nor was it the message that a couple of parents i talked with after the conference in Ballard on Saturday took away with them.

I will admit, they had read his book prior to the conference and told me that they appreciated hearing what he had to say in context... they better understood how to lovingly spank their children.

I understand his subsequent editions have placed less focus on spanking, but the basic message is still there.. that Christians must spank their children to produce good christian children.

I can't speak for the conference. I chose not to attend because i could not have been respectful to your church listening to that kind of information.

While it may be true that spanking is required to produce sweet submissive children (Tripp's words), as a Christian i disagree that it is necessary to ritually spank your children to produce good Christian children.

And i have a problem with the idea that a good christian is a submissive christian. That concept is old testament... it isn't what Jesus taught...

I knew nothing about your church when i responded to Tedd Tripp's message. However, i have learned a great deal since then and i have to tell you that much of what i have learned troubles me.

The one thing that troubled me most was the attitude of your fellow parishioners as i stood outside the church silently holding a sign that quoted scripture (quoting Jesus) passing out Christian parenting information.

I asked, "Would you like some more resources for Christian parenting information?" and very few accepted the handout. Most gave me a curt no or no combined with the assessment that they didn't need information from worldly people... and those were the responses that were at least polite words if not politely given.

I worry about a church where parishioners think that any Christians other than the ones attending the church are automatically assumed to be "worldly" and therefore anti-Christian if they present any information which might be seen to challenge the church.

I also worry about the amount of venom that was directed to me in the gas station parking lot across the street from the church by one of your fellow parishioners and has been reflected in the personal emails i have received from members of your church.

the assumption was that i was attacking the church, not the parenting information being presented at the church... and is the same assumption that is reflected in your post.

I am concerned about any church that leads it's members to believe that anyone who challenges the message they are presenting.. even if that message is coming from a speaker that is not a member of the church... is attacking the church and therefore deserves unchristian behavior directed at them.

I am concerned about a church that is so concerned about it's parishioners receiving other alternate information, that it's security people attempt to intimidate people leafleting cars.. when they are leafleting on public property.. and takes the time and trouble to go behind them and remove the handouts before their parishioners return to their cars.

I know there was no anti-Mars Hill rhetoric in those handouts because i edited the handout that was used to leaflet the cars around the West Seattle Mars Hill Church.. (i wrote the one that was handed out there Friday night). .. It was just parenting information from a strictly Christian point of view.

i know what occurred during the leafleting on Sunday prior to the conference in West Seattle, because i was one of the people leafleting cars. Those who leafleted in Ballard reported a similar experience.

and lastly i am concerned about what i observed myself that supported the church's attitude towards women that has been mentioned in this forum... I saw many fathers leading the family holding a child's hand while the mother followed steps behind.. sometimes only carrying one child... and the father spoke exclusively and not very politely for the family. Even when couples were walking together, the the men spoke predominantly for the family.

As a Christian, i am concerned by what i have observed... but i still don't know enough about your church to be anti Mars Hill Church...

I only know enough to be concerned...

and i don't know that i would have publicly expressed that concern had you not posted... thank you for posting a reasoned comment that merited a reply.

Aparent, I encourage you to post on the homepage as well there was some very interesting discussions there as well.

I don't think a discussion of the legitimacy of Mars Hill is appropriate, and I hope such does not ensue. I will simply say that I am not surprised a new voice from the church appeared on the forum and that people should not read something from one member and assume they have the complete picture.

Feedback from the conference:

Honestly, it was really good. Spanking (and how not to do it) was but a few minutes of a very rich 5 1/2 hours of content. Mr. Tripp came across as a gentle, kind, witty man who really loves God, his children and grandchildren, and cares deeply about future generations.

Some key take aways:

- Formative instruction is far more important than moments of disicpline. Parents need to capitalize more on the time with their children when they are not in conflict.

- Parents unfairly make massive assumptions about what children know at various ages. Kids are being disciplined for things they should not because, perhaps, there has been a gap in formative instruction, or the parent is not thoughtfully considering "would a 5 year old know not to do this? Have I ever taught them this?"

- They way we talk to our kids, even in stressful times is important - we shold use life-giving words with kindness and graciousness.

- Authority and respect for it is deteriorating in our society. There is a healthy reason for authority - children feel safe when they know Mom and Dad are in charge.

- Parents don't want to produce good behavior that is artifical (obey because they are supposed to), but rather good behavior that comes from the heart (obey because they want to).

- Discipline should not be punative, but restorative.

- Parent shouldn't discipline their kids for childish behavior because it's inconvenient for the parent (like spilling milk). Discipline is reserved for overt defiance, and unhonorable actions.

- God has become very fairytale-like in our society, and fewer and fewer parents who claim to be Christians spend little time, if any at all with the Lord, whether in prayer, in community with other Christians (church), reading their bible, etc. This renders our children unaware of the love and hope in Christ and left to search for their joy in the things of this world that are not lasting.

- Natural consequences are very powerful learning tools, and parent should not be too quick to fix it for them. For example, if your child loses their backpack, grab them a canvas grocery bag to use for now and tell them they'll need to earn a new backpack.

Lots of heart-probing things you can say to your children that allow them to speak and think (age appropriate of course)...

"Help me understand..."
"Do you think we've been fair?"
"You can trust God and Mom and Dad to know what is good for you."
"I love you and am committed to you and I would lay down my life for you"

This is obviously not exhaustive - I can't blog for 5 1/2 hours.

>

Parenting is hard folks - it's the absolute hardest most wonderful thing I have ever done. The love I have for my children is like no other. Discipline is not fun - I don't want my time with my children to be conflict, but I know I have to love them enough to discipline, so that they can be joyful, empathetic, productive, humble, kind, gentle, earnest, giving adults.

>

I really wish the protestors would have attended the conference or somehow gone a little deeper on this subject, on the speaker, and Mars Hill. JoB seems like a very nice person with a big heart, but I disagree with how this was managed, and how my church was portrayed in the process.

>

Anyone is welcomed to attend service at Mars Hill any time they like, and even with complete anonimity if they wish, provided they are peaceful and respectful. It may not change your mind on hot-buttoned subjects, but your blogs and protests will be a lot more reputable and meaningful.

A Parent

anglecrest..

today we had 10 protesters at Mars Hill in the rain. .. with a couple that showed up just after we left.. but no television crews:)

no matter... it was worthwhile..

they cut their program short to empty the church before we got there ;~>

and we still talked with some of their members.

I will say that having observed children at the protest today.. it was difficult for them. I really applaud the families that brought their little ones out. We even had someone from Bremerton.

i thought i would share with you the comments from one of the young mothers that protested at Mars Hill last night regarding the low turnout....

"I actually like that, for my first experience protesting or demonstrating, the turnout was so small. While it is a little awkward perhaps to see the media and think "oh, well they're going to think, 'I came out for this?,'" in one sense, it's as though our voices mattered even more because we took the time and energy to express them for all those we represent that couldn't be with us.

It would be inspiring on an amazing level to one day rally with hundreds or thousands of others, something I hope to do in my life.

Until then, I will bear in mind that my voice alone matters as much as those of a thousand others."

New Resident...

Thank you for respecting the protest today and waiting till after it was over.

Had you done so yesterday, you wouldn't have received email from me.

However, I was wrong. obviously, for you, it is about you.

when you feel the need to bring communication that i sent privately to keep it out of the forum into the forum, i feel the least i can do is grant your wish.

you will have no more communication from me.. on or off the blog.

Taking a breath of the craziness of life to thank you, JoB (and the other two), for taking the time, making the effort...you were brave and visible, and though I could not be there (yes, I have Miss Metabolic to take care of which precludes doing much of anything), I am in awe of your generosity of spirit and purpose. This man is insane...

JoB - I have respectfully waited until the completion of your protest to answer your above post that you directed to me.

First of all, if this is not about me, why do you keep addressing me personally in this thread?

Obviously, I realize this protest, and the entire topic, has nothing to do with me!!! I cannot understand why you are (or did) make it so.

I answered your question. It was directed right at me. As in: NewResident... are you going to protest with us?

I explained that I could not, with a clear conscious protest something I knew nothing about. You turned that around to make it a bad thing. Even through personal email.

If others felt that they did not have a right to protest something they had not researched, guess what?, that is NOT my fault. What that is called is: people thinking for themselves.

I commend those people. I also commend you. I have stated several times that I think it is great that you did the research, felt strongly about it and did something about it. I would expect nothing less from you.

I didn't do that research and stated as such. Can we move on now? Please keep me out of this crusade, stop blaming me for turnouts at protests and, respectfully, stop emailing me.

last bump for those who might want to attend the protest or learn more

New Resident..

this isn't about you.

this is about a pastor who is using the pulpit of Mars Hill church to teach parents than a good child is a submissive child and that to make your children sweet you begin disciplining them the day you bring them home.

Any sign of resistance to parental authority is to be viewed as rebellion which has to be dealt with by spanking on bare bottoms until the child is once again sweet and submissive.

This pastor thinks that spanking is such a necessary and important part of raising a christian child that he devotes the last hour of a two day conference.. the hour when a speaker drives his point home.. to spanking.

This information is all available to anyone who is interested in this thread and the other thread i linked to on this forum ... and by following still other links to the media coverage and to the googlepage dedicated to this effort.

This thread is specifically for conversation about a protest that is still happening.

Today.. a handful of people.. or more.. will be standing outside on a corner with no agenda other than to pass out christian child raising pamphlets and handouts that list alternative child rearing resources to parents as they exit that seminar.

I fail to understand why you have a problem with that.. but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

The West Seattle Blog Forum is being cited by nearly every news source that covers this story and is being widely read because of the links...

It would be helpful if those who are looking for information about Tedd Tripp and this conference didn't have to wade through your personal angst to find it.

I don't get the whole "let it go" statements that we frequently see on this forum.

Why can I not say what I think or, at the very least, defend my views and opinions?

I do not want to "perpetuate" anything. I'm not even the person who brought up the subject of abortion in this thread.

I defended a position and answered a legitimate question that was directed right at me.

No. I could not, in good conscious protest something I had no background about. I hope those of you who did protest felt good about it and I commend you for what you did. There was never a reason for anyone to get nasty about anything here.

NR..let it go. Yes, you answered honestly. Face it, some people feel very strongly about this particular subject, and for good reason. You obviously want to perpetuate something other than what the topic of this thread is (wow, lousy grammar) The protest is done, it's over. You originally popped into this thread with an opinion, you got an opinion back. Hopefully, we reached some people this evening and made them think, or at least gave them some alternative answers and links to other ways of parenting in a "Christian" way, whatever that means. Good parenting is good parenting, whether in a "Christian" context or not, in my book.

"New Resident,

since you think spanking is wrong, will we see you tonight?" - JoB

"if you felt you didn't know enough to participate, all you had to do was stay silent." - JoB

Are you kidding me? You asked me a question, I answered honestly and I get chastised for it.

Something is not adding up here.........

Those that do not stand up against injustice are just as guilty.

As JoeB pointed out to me, not saying something about abuse, perpetuates it.

There were two very quiet protests tonight.. one at Mars Hill church in Ballard and one at Mars Hill church in West Seattle.

although very few people who were entering the church were interested in any alternative information, quite a few of those who drove by honked, waved and said thank you.

We three made our point.. and I will do so again tomorrow at noon in Ballard...

This effort opened a conversation in Seattle.. and i am having conversation by email with many who responded to my personal email...

altogether, we achieved more than i hoped to be able to do.

I never said I WASN'T telling other people what to do with their bodies. Call it a polite suggestion in the name of integrity of opinion in ole' Cait's mind. If you don't care about that then continue on in your pursuit of trying to "pee in the pool so no one else can swim."

As for "practicing what I preach" or "treating others, etc" - do you know me, NR? I personally believe that if you disagree with harm to children you should probably disagree with it across the board. I find it strange that you thought I was specifically talking to anyone, really. I'm more addressing those that attend that cult every Sunday and would begrudge me an abortion yet would go so far as to beat their wives and children.
Did you ever say that you disagreed with abortion? No - not in what I've seen. So why the hostility and the accusations? Just standard operating procedure when you don't like what I say?

New Resident..

I am going to ask you a question quietly and then i am going to walk out the door to participate in a protest that was never my idea to begin with...

Why is it that it is so impossible for you to support other people's efforts to do something positive for others?

if you felt you didn't know enough to participate, all you had to do was stay silent.

don't blame other people for your own choices.. because you make them.

Disclaimer: This post comes from NewResident using JT's computer.

Cait - To tell someone who opposes abortion that they sure as heck better show up at the protest tonight seems akin to someone else telling you what you should and should not do with your body. The old saying, "practice what you preach" comes to mind. Or even better, "treat others as you would like to be treated".

Oh, btw, I'm also Irish.

JoB - I am extremely impressed that you were able to read the book in question. I feel glad for you that you will be protesting tonight with a clear conscious and knowing EXACTLY what it is you are protesting.

I also am greatly impressed with your extensive "quiet" contributions to those less fortunate, which you have posted twice now. You are a far better woman than myself.

I do have to say that I firmly stand by my decision to not participate in the protest tonight. I did not fully educate myself regarding this particular author and do not feel it appropriate for me to be there. That can be turned around however you want (I "don't care enough", which, btw, JoB, is a very unbecoming assumption on your part, IMO). No. I did not make the time to research because I have been busy raising my own daughter who, btw, has not been spanked.

I wish I could be there to support parents and kids who choose nonviolence. Sadly, there will be more chances.

Those of you who cringe at the hostility of some of the WSB blog forums should check out the comments in the Seattle Times thread the accompanies the article about Tripp. As I suspected, we're genteel at our best or worst.

http://tinyurl.com/3kvzzn

New Resident & JT ...

Why is there always someone who wants to pee in the pool so that nobody else can swim?

Yes, i read the book. And i had to go to some effort to find it. I cared enough to do that.

Zenguy read nearly 300 individual reviews on Amazon.

Now.. you can decide that i am on my high and mighty... and cast doubt as to the validity of this protest...

but that won't change the fact that you had equal opportunity to learn what i learned in the same amount of time i learned it

and do something about it... if you cared.

I refuse to be made to feel bad because i rightly assessed that New Resident would not.

surprise me.. astound me.. show up.

But stop putting people down who actually put their own money, time and effort where their mouth is.

i am out of time to post here.. there are still signs to be made and handouts to fold.

whether you show up or not, others will show up in support of giving parents other options.

That's all we are doing.. providing handouts with options.

I am at a loss see where you would have to find out what your position on all of Tedd Tripp's writing to do that..

but hey.. it's your choice.

I would like to say that anyone who is on the other thread talking about how horrible abortions are better be showing up with your signs and your anger to protest those actually showing physical violence to LIVE BABIES/PEOPLE. That should drum up some support for you, JoB! :) More power to you! I wish I could be there, but I'm afraid that I would be arrested for assault if I ran into anyone who actually bought into this horse caca.

I shall honk as I drive by in solidarity but I shall keep my Irish anger at home for the best interests of all involved.

(not trying to threadjack, just referring back to a side comment) Zenguy, I know this was many comments back, but I did want to follow up because it sounded like you might have some information I wanted regarding the Voltaire quote. I found the same references you listed when I Googled, but because none of them lists a specific work, I'm aware they may be misattributions. Neither Oxford Quotations, nor Britannica, nor Roget's list this under their Voltaire quotes, and those resources usually do their homework. What I'd like, if you know it, is where in Voltaire's work I can find that line--translated or not. Do you know? TIA

And thank you Sue. Your honesty is extremely refreshing.

I have to say that I respect New Resident's position on it - I would find it hard to protest something when I didn't have personal knowledge of it. While reading the excerpts of this man's book here and elsewhere, it certainly sounds like something worthy of protest. However, I'm sure you could also pull the right excerpts out of the book and make it look like the most loving, wonderful act on earth. (Note: I am NOT saying anyone manipulated this information posted here or has a particular agenda; I'm speaking generally.) But if I were protesting it and someone asked my opinion on something in the book, and I had to admit I hadn't read any of it, I'd come off looking like an idiot. Being informed is important for all of us in any situation, especially when we're speaking up about it.

"You can choose to be part of the solution or you can choose to be part of the problem.." - JoB

How can I choose to be a part of the solution when I'm not completely educated or informed of what the problem is? I'm, at least, willing to admit that I have not educated myself on this issue enough to participate in the protest.

You can try and turn that into something negative about me personally, but I think it is the commendable choice to make.

Did you read all his books, JoB?

Thanks JT and Jenny.

> New Resident: JoB - I do not agree with spanking an infant. That is for sure.

> However, you will not see me tonight because I have not read this person's books and do not feel I should protest something that I'm not 100% sure what the exact message is.

> I commend those of you who DID find the time to read those books and are standing up for what you believe in.

What New Resident said. Good luck!

"somehow, i didn't think so"

Or you can just say bitchy things. No matter the topic, wanting to be informed (reading the book in question), does not merit a put down.

i have printed up handouts for tonight and will finish more signs this afternoon since holding signs seems to be most comfortable for the people who have responded...

****

i am sorry you can't see a way to join us New Resident.

i don't expect it to be much fun, but it has already proven worthwhile. I have already heard from members of the Mars Hill church.. and the church's neighbors... who are glad someone is speaking up.

****

You can choose to be part of the solution or you can choose to be part of the problem.. even if the only was you contribute to that problem is by not speaking out...

or as my best friend says.. you can just stand by the side and bitch.

I think that old adgage and my friend's comment apply to a lot of situations.

her firm boot in my backside has gotten me out the door more times than i care to admit:)

Yep, I stand behind my decision, JoB.

Have fun tonight!

somehow, i didn't think so.

JoB - I do not agree with spanking an infant. That is for sure.

However, you will not see me tonight because I have not read this person's books and do not feel I should protest something that I'm not 100% sure what the exact message is.

I commend those of you who DID find the time to read those books and are standing up for what you believe in.

Where this all began for those of us in West Seattle...

with a post from Nico and posts from concerned parent that gave direction to this controversy...

and thanks to all who have participated both publicly and privately to generate the attention this issue has received.

it has been an honor to work with you all.

http://westseattleblog.com/blog/forum/topic.php?id=1928&replies=115