Later school starts for teens/tweens? Here’s what Seattle Public Schools might do, and how to let the district know what you think

After years of talk and one year of official analysis, Seattle Public Schools is looking at action on changing schedules so that older students would start school later. Next step in the decision about “bell times” involves public comment, including a meeting in West Seattle.

First, here’s the schedule changes (updated) recommended to district superintendent Dr. Larry Nyland by the Bell Times Task Force:

High Schools – 8:50 AM to 3:20 PM
Most Elementary Schools ā€“ 8 AM to 2:10 PM (a few elementary schools yet to be identified would be 8:50 AM to 3 PM)
Middle and K-8 Schools ā€“ 9:40 AM to 4:10 PM

The public meeting scheduled for West Seattle is set for 6:30 pm Tuesday, September 29th, at Chief Sealth International High School, but you don’t have to wait that long to tell the district what you think: Send your comment(s) to arrivaltimes@seattleschools.org.

P.S. In connection with the bell-times analysis, the district has published a Draft Programmatic Environmental Impact Statement about potential effects of the changes such as transit and park impacts. You can see it here; comments on the potential impacts can be sent to SEPAComments@seattleschools.org.

ADDED 12:35 PM: Thanks to Lynn for pointing out in comments that the times listed above are the task force’s recommendation TO the superintendent, who hasn’t made his recommendation yet; we have amended the line above to reflect that. See more background in this announcement.

42 Replies to "Later school starts for teens/tweens? Here's what Seattle Public Schools might do, and how to let the district know what you think"

  • AmandaKH August 3, 2015 (12:03 pm)

    How about the elementary schools run from 8:00 – 3:10 and then they could get a full lunch and recess.

  • Lynn August 3, 2015 (12:13 pm)

    This is the recommendation of the task force to the Superintendent. He will make his recommendation regarding bell times changes to the school board in October.

    This was not necessarily the solution preferred by the task force, but their choice out of the options district staff asked them to consider. (Their report indicated interest in a two-tier schedule so that no school would be starting as late as 9:40.)

    • WSB August 3, 2015 (12:37 pm)

      Thanks, Lynn, I have amended to reflect that and included a link to the announcement from last week giving context.

  • BMC August 3, 2015 (12:25 pm)

    I’m grateful they have recognized the sleep needs of the high school students. Wondering though – couldn’t the arrival times be spaced closer together: 8:20 for elem, 8:50 to 9 for HS, 9:20 for K-8?

  • Lynn August 3, 2015 (12:51 pm)

    BMC,

    I believe the problem is that 30 minutes isn’t long enough to make most bus runs. Our current transportation standards are:

    Attendance Area Elementary and Attendance Area K-8 routes will be designed to operate with travel times of 45 minutes or less where feasible. All other routes will be designed to operate with travel times of 60 minutes or less where feasible. Ride time is defined as the time the first student boards the bus until the bus arrives at school in the A.M., or in the P.M. the time the bus leaves the school until the last student is dropped off the bus.

  • NotOnHolden August 3, 2015 (3:03 pm)

    I’d love to see the 15 minute lunch disappear.

  • nikki August 3, 2015 (3:17 pm)

    I think this plan is great, High school students need a later time.

  • Rational Thought August 3, 2015 (4:13 pm)

    Anyone who thinks it is a good idea to have the much later times for these students apparently doesn’t live near a school. Those of us who live near schools have to get up HOURS early in order to leave our homes and get out of West Seattle to downtown or anywhere else because of the traffic and the later start times just make things worse for longer. The late times for the elementary school on Delridge used last school year caused horrific backups. You couldn’t get down Delridge in less than 20 minutes until after about 10:30 am. So all of the schools doing this will guarantee no one else can get anywhere else unless they leave at 5-6 am. That’s ridiculous. And what’s with the nonsense about high schoolers needing a later start time?!? Does the world revolve around high school students? Do businesses need to start operating at 10 or 11 am to accommodate the little darlings when he or she gets around to getting a job? High school is, in part, designed to get kids ready for life. Starting the day at 9:40 is NOT doing anything of the sort.

    On another subject, the 15 minute lunch is complete nonsense too. Kids need time to move around and play and get some exercise. This 15 minute stuff has to stop! THAT is actually something harming kids that needs to stop. There is ample evidence showing the harm that is occurring to kids but the District refuses to put an end to it.

  • Katerrific4 August 3, 2015 (4:42 pm)

    I think ALOT of families schedules will be disrupted if not able to have their middle and high school children out of school in time to pick up siblings from elementary schools.

  • RMY August 3, 2015 (4:44 pm)

    Is the district going to provide free after school care for the thousands of families already strapped for time and money due to this change? High school kids don’t require after school care.

  • old timer August 3, 2015 (4:46 pm)

    FWIW-
    Long ago, in a land far away, my school hours for grades 7 thru 12, were 8:15 to 3:15. One building for us all, and my graduating class size was 90 kids – 3 homerooms of 30 each- most of whom I’d been with since at least 7th grade, many since kindergarten. We had 2 schools for K thru 6, and we all walked to school, from K on up. Yes, some of the kids got cars when they turned 16, but not for everyday use.
    Like I said, long ago, far away, and in today’s world, a treasure to remember.

  • AMD August 3, 2015 (4:58 pm)

    I don’t think starting schools later would cause cars to back up earlier, Rational Thought. I think it would just change the time the heaviest traffic is. Currently the schools start at such a time that I’m contending with the school and bus traffic while heading to work. A different start time would alleviate this since I’d be out of West Seattle when the buses start.
    .
    The “nonsense” about high schoolers needing a later start time is based on a number of studies that show grades, knowledge retention, behavior, and a number of other things are greatly improved when kids in this age group wake up a little later. Blame science. I, for one, am glad to see science being used to influence changes made in how we teach kids.

  • RMY August 3, 2015 (5:03 pm)

    Is the school district going to provide free after school care for the thousands of families already strapped for time and money due to this issue? Perhaps waking up a bit earlier might benefit some of these self entitled high school students into realizing this is the norm. Young adults can take care of themselves after school and they can wake up with the rest of society.

  • Lynn August 3, 2015 (5:32 pm)

    School schedules should of course be arranged to support good health and academic outcomes for students. Sleep researchers and the American Academy of Pediatrics tell us that adolescents should not start school before 8:30 am.

    As for after school care, many families of elementary school students are paying for both before and after school care now, (Most parents have to leave for work before the current 9:40 start time.) This will likely reduce costs for them.

    If adequate funding were available, we’d be better off starting middle schools at 9:00 too – but the legislature doesn’t seem to be willing to fully fund transportation costs.

  • West Seattle Mom August 3, 2015 (5:35 pm)

    What about working parents and childcare. Most often the use of older siblings and neighbors to take care of the younger ones. The middle schoolers would end up needing to get themselves to school which could cause safety risks. We are not all stay at home Mom’s. I reiterate that of High school students being prepared for college and jobs. How will they perform later? Shall we always cater to the uncomfortable? I do know that high school students need more sleep, my background involved developmental studies and working with youth but to start later makes them feel as though they have permission to saty up later to get school work done after activities. To not get out of school until after 4pm does not give room to after school activities or sports and if it does, it than diminishes the dinner hour together as a family. Studies show dinner as a family unit is beneficial and is so very important. Why make changes when things have been this way for so long and is across the country. What is causing the “need” for change? Would it really be resolved by changing the structure as it is and is across the country? My bigger complaint is the first day of school therefore feeding until the end of June to get out of school.

  • Jon Wright August 3, 2015 (5:56 pm)

    Sheesh people. What is driving this? Science! Science shows teens have different physiological needs than elementary-age kids or adults. This is about giving high school students the best possible opportunity to learn. It isn’t about saving you a trip picking your kids up, it isn’t about ensuring your have the smoothest possible commute in the morning, it isn’t about making students suffer along with working adults. IT IS ABOUT HELPING THE STUDENTS LEARN! All you people whinging out there are basically saying your convenience is more important than the documented physiological needs of high school students.

  • Old Person August 3, 2015 (6:05 pm)

    Back in my day (Class of ’83!) we started school at 8:20 and went until 3:45. We had a 30 minute lunch and Physical Education every day. Some school activities (marching band) had practice starting at 7:00am during the football season, and other activities happened after school.

    I was able to go to school, participate in group activities, hold down a part-time job AND graduate in the upper third of my class. I then went to a state college where I graduated in four years and have been more or a less a productive member of society since. I hate to sound like an old crank, but why can’t we have the same expectations for today’s kids?

  • trickycoolj August 3, 2015 (6:06 pm)

    North Thurston Public Schools moved start times from 7:00 to 8:05 while I was in high school. It was glorious. Middle school started at 8:00 and they were bussed together, MS dropped off first, then HS. It helped that all their MS and HS campuses were next to each other. Helped for the really rural kids who with a 7AM start had 5:30AM and 6AM bus pickups.

  • Lynn August 3, 2015 (6:41 pm)

    Here are the AAP policy statement on the issue: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/08/19/peds.2014-1697.full.pdf and a link to a discussion on the website of the National Sleep Foundation: http://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-news/backgrounder-later-school-start-times

    Yes, the reason for the change is science. The school district should make decisions based on student’s needs, not sports schedules, traffic or sibling child care.

    It’s not about giving students permission to stay up later, it’s about the delayed production of melatonin in the brains of adolescents. If they don’t get sleepy until 11 and they need an average of nine hours of sleep, their schools should not start before nine. (And that’s assuming they can get up, dressed, eat and travel to school in an hour.)

  • RMY August 3, 2015 (7:37 pm)

    Jon, lynn… Do you have children in school? Just wondering.

  • rudy August 3, 2015 (7:41 pm)

    As a parent of students in a K-8, I feel pretty marginalized in this process. The proposed changes go against the research for K-5 students in K-8 schools. A 9:40 start time is crazy late for kids who are ready to go at 7:30 in the AM. In addition, a post 4:00 dismissal for little ones seems less than ideal too. If I extrapolate a 4:10 dismissal that means the bus leaves school at 4:20 (when it’s on time) and then drops my daughters at home at almost 5:00PM – and we’re not the last kids off on our route. I feel like this process has selectively applied the science when it comes to students at K-8 buildings. I’m curious how many kids that is across the district at K-8 schools who get their “bio clocks” ignored in this exploration. I also find it hard to believe that secondary schools won’t start extra curricular activities before school and negate the more sleep argument for athletes and/or musicians, etc. (Though I’m sure there’s also solid research that rigorous physical activity before school also producing better academic outcomes.) I’m more likely to get on board with this plan when K-8’s are considered a little more carefully and beneficially by the argument set forth for this change.

  • llfauntleroy August 3, 2015 (8:01 pm)

    Lynn and John, you are absolutely right. The only problem with this plan is that it wasn’t implemented YEARS ago. Everybody wants to see better results from our public schools and students, right? This is a plan that was created using scientific evidence, unlike the countless attempts before (curriculum change, standardized test change,etc,etc.). The brain is rewiring during the preteen and teen years, and they focus better later in the morning. There will always be people that don’t want a change. SPS needs to do this for the good of their students, who are their priority.

  • Lynn August 3, 2015 (8:58 pm)

    RMY,

    Yes I do. Do you?

    Rudy,

    I agree with you about the K-8s. I think they should start at 8:00. Every kid in grades 6-8 has the right to attend a traditional middle school if the early schedule doesn’t work for them. (I don’t think there was any science involved in throwing them into the third tier – the district just needed to spead out the buses more evenly.)

  • NotOnHolden August 3, 2015 (9:00 pm)

    Ummm I have to laugh re the start times affecting traffic on Delridge. I can be to my office in the ID WITHIN 15 20 minutes tops after dropping off my kid at STEM. The only traffic back ups were caused by the lower bridge being open and construction at the entrance to West Seattle bridge. I’m willing to bet $5 dollars that “Rational” is one of the first people to get a school zone speeding ticket when the cameras go live.

  • eileen August 3, 2015 (10:20 pm)

    I welcome the later start times as does my daughter but I feel the middle school start time is more.driven by convenience for busing schedules than logic. Seems unnaturally late at 9:40.

  • Rumbles August 3, 2015 (10:24 pm)

    Sweet! Do it!!

    Peeps, try it for a year and see if it works, come on — open minds y’all!

  • Betsy Cramer August 3, 2015 (10:32 pm)

    I agree high schoolers do start early … but why change all.. but starting middle school at 9:40-4:10that’s a little late ..

  • Gina August 4, 2015 (3:25 am)

    On the positive side, Admiral residents won’t have to race to the grocery store to beat the after school revellers.

    The negative will be the Lafayette intercom before 8am.

    I went to Madison and West Seattle during the legendary double school levy failures of the seventies. Seems that start and stop times changed yearly, along.with switching from semesters to trimesters and back to semesters. And having six subjects but only five periods, dropping a class for a week in rotation. With involuntary bussing and k-3 and k-4-5 schools.

    One confusing mess. Not the best learning environment. School district should stick with what it chooses for a bit.

    Three more elementaries are needed in West Seattle. The former Cooper attendance area is full of kids. They all can’t fit at pathfinder. Genesee Hill is full of kids. Fauntleroy
    And Jefferson, all those closed or sold off properties, full of kids, and no place for replacement schools. Another middle school is needed too.

    I don’t want to see Lafayette have 1,100 pupils again, with portables cheek to jowl.

  • Bonnie August 4, 2015 (8:05 am)

    Middle school getting out at 4:10pm is not a good idea. Will they walk home in the dark during the winter months? Not all can get the bus.

  • datamuse August 4, 2015 (8:22 am)

    As someone who had to get up at 5 in the morning when I was in high school I think this is a great idea. I also was able to go to school, participate in group activities, hold down a part-time job, and went to a Seven Sisters college, but I also regularly fell asleep in class regardless of how early I’d gone to bed the night before, and I wasn’t the only one.
    .
    Our start time was 7:50 am. These days I start work at 7:30 and that works fine, but when I was 15 it was insane.

  • Lynn August 4, 2015 (8:43 am)

    Gina,

    The school district was allocated money in the recent state budget to reopen the Hughes building as an elementary school and I expect boundaries will be redrawn to leave some Schmitz Park families in the old school when the new Genessee Hill building is opened.

    As for middle schools, we do need another. We have a building for that (Boren) but the district was convinced by STEM families that it would be better used as a K-8. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a new middle school built at the old Denny site and Chief Sealth taking over the current Denny building.

    The district still owns the land under Jefferson Square. Maybe they’ll need to take that back.

  • ? August 4, 2015 (9:32 am)

    Wow this is just plain crazy. Middle school start at 9:40…..? how do we get to go to work and make a living to pay for said children? Also how do we get the kids to afterschool events that are not built around this crazy proposed school start/end time?

  • jenny August 4, 2015 (9:59 am)

    An adult should not try to eat.lunch in 15 min. So why should a kid? Obvious reasons people!!! High school from 8:30-3:20 middle From 8:30-2:10 elementary, later.

  • ACR August 4, 2015 (10:32 am)

    Although I completely agree that high school students need more sleep – I think an 8 am start time would be better, simply for getting them job ready. An almost 9am start time sounds like a luxury.

  • Sean August 4, 2015 (12:28 pm)

    ACR, these days most offices let you come in whenever. In my office people come in as early as 7 or as late as 11. You want to prepare them for the real world? Have a class that teaches them how to use credit and control their spending.

  • Lynn August 4, 2015 (12:38 pm)

    jenny,

    I believe the lunch times will be sorted out when school starts this fall. The district expects children to have 20 minutes of seated lunch time – so starting from the time the last hot lunch is served. If this isn’t happening at your child’s school, I’d email the principal to ask for a change. If you’re not satisfied with the result, email the principal and copy the executive director for your region. (For West Seattle, this is Israel Vela (isvela@seattleschools.org.) The next step up is Mr. Vela’s boss Michael Tolley.

    In general, young children naturally wake and are best able to learn earlier than teenagers. It makes no sense to start elementary schools after middle and high schools.

  • Lynn August 4, 2015 (12:42 pm)

    ACR,

    14 year old children need to graduate from high school much more than they need to be job ready. Teens need more sleep and because of their biology, the only way to get it is to allow them to sleep later in the morning.

  • K-8 Parent August 4, 2015 (4:16 pm)

    As the parent of a K-8 student I think this proposal is AWFUL. There are 6 elementary grades and 3 middle school grades in a K-8. The school should serve the needs of the majority of its students! Where are the studies about young children being in school that late in the day? How does it affect them???

  • fulana August 4, 2015 (5:14 pm)

    This is not about traffic or what we did “back in the day”. It’s about children and their needs. The proposal is based on scientific evidence with the purpose of meeting student needs. How is that so hard to understand?

  • Cindy August 5, 2015 (10:08 am)

    I’d like to provide a little insight from the bell times task force and as a member of Start School Later Seattle. SPS limited our consideration to just three options-no change, extended HS day, and the “modified flip”. Many people on the task force strongly advocated for the ideal two tier solution, with 8:00 am starts for younger students, and 8:50 for middle and high. SPS transportation maintained that this would add an additional $ 7-12 million to transportation costs. The task force also proposed a modified flip with K8s in an earlier tier. While it will be impossible to get the ideal two tier system at this point (without full state funding for education), we can hope to get K8s into the more biologically appropriate tier 1 or 2, 8 or 8:50 start times. The third tier is not good for any age student. If we are stuck with a 3 tier system, three years of middle school, is the best fit. As students hit puberty their biological sleep time shifts, so later starts are beneficial to most, and middle school students don’t have the same level of after school responsibilities as high school students. An improved modified flip represents a compromise, but it will bring benefit to the thousands of middle and high school students whose early start times are detrimental to their health and learning, and improve the start time for current elementary students whose start time is too late.

  • Katy August 10, 2015 (9:12 pm)

    I agree that the high school students should be in the 3rd tier. Wasn’t that the whole point? I work with adolescents and see the negative impact of a system that completely ignores their biological clock… exhausted kids lead to poor outcomes – period.
    Thanks for all the posts!

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