White-supremacist group's posters reappear in West Seattle

AG March 4, 2018 (12:03 pm)

Absolutely disgusting. Hate is NOT WELCOME HERE.

H March 4, 2018 (12:37 pm)

The fascist undercurrents in the US are frightening.

wsgal March 4, 2018 (12:49 pm)

I hope whoever saw these also tore them down.

Lovenothate March 4, 2018 (12:58 pm)

Just took a quick walk around Hiawatha and pulled down a dozen of these.

TheStrategyJew March 5, 2018 (9:01 am)

As a Mexican-Jewish dude, I don’t support these cats’ message of hate. However, this group- despite their vitriol, has a Constitutional right to not only hang their posters, but also to not have their posters ‘torn down’. They have a right to publicly display their beliefs like anyone else in the Estados Unidos. I cite the 1977 SCOTUS case National Socialists Party of America v. Village of Skokie, which supports this group’s right to do their thing.

For those of you who want to tear down these posters, your absolutely wrong. So what? Someone does something you don’t like? Welcome to the real world. These guys are hanging posters, they aren’t Boko Haram or Sinn Fein- kidnapping schoolgirls or killing political dissidents. I come from a place where it is a one-party democracy, and to hear messages from all political spectrums in this country is refreshing, and indicative of true Freedom relevant of Enlightenment political & philosophical theory.
- Handbanana March 5, 2018 (9:29 am)
  
  They don’t have a right for their posters to not be taken down, where the hell did you hear that? Take your fake news somewhere else. We can tear them down all we want.
  - thestrategyjew March 8, 2018 (9:49 am)
    
    Hey dawg, I’m too educated to watch FoxNews or MSNBC. What I plainly evoked in my statement is that people have a right to share their opinions publicly. I didn’t say the Constitution says that you can’t- you have a critical reading issue, and I suggest you work on it.
    
    To take/tear anyone’s posters down; to censor, and purposely remove their rhetoric from the public space is a physical act that tears down a belief or idea. No matter how wrong it may be or how much you disagree with is poor behavior, you can’t just rip stuff down that you don’t agree with because that’s called majoritarianism. Majoritarianism is what’s going down in Myanmar with the Rohingya- a people who are being subjugated because of their beliefs- albeit religious, but it is a current example.
- Michelle March 5, 2018 (9:52 am)
  
  RCW 70.54.090
  
  Attachment of objects to utility poles—Penalty.
  
  (1)
  It shall be unlawful to attach to utility poles any of the following:
  Advertising signs, posters, vending machines, or any similar object
  which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical
  workers. Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the
  permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than
  twelve feet above the surface of the ground.
  
  (2) A person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
  
  [ 2003 c 53 § 351; 1953 c 185 § 1.]
  - Niko March 5, 2018 (12:58 pm)
    
    It’s not an ad for a product and even if they did enforce it that way, it wouldn’t be constitutional. Political parties put up posters on poles constantly– you can’t treat this any differently.
  - Niko March 5, 2018 (1:09 pm)
    
    Mike, you missed this critical part:
    
    It shall be unlawful to attach to utility poles any of the following:
    Advertising signs, posters, vending machines, or any similar object
    which presents a hazard to, or endangers the lives of, electrical
    workers. Any attachment to utility poles shall only be made with the
    permission of the utility involved, and shall be placed not less than
    twelve feet above the surface of the ground.
    
    (2) A person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    - Mike March 5, 2018 (5:48 pm)
      
      1. Read further
      
      2. That’s the state. City is you can’t put them there.
- seaopgal March 5, 2018 (10:11 am)
  
  You’re only partly correct, thestrategyjew. The GOVERNMENT cannot arbitrarily take down these signs (as long as they are posted in accordance with regulations) or treat them differently than any other sign. But there is absolutely no legal reason why individual people can’t remove, deface or otherwise annotate them.
  - thestrategyjew March 8, 2018 (9:57 am)
    
    SeaOpGal,
    
    The 1977 SCOTUS case decision I cite was a municipal government acting on behalf of concerned citizens- effectively a citizen lobby. In effect, if the SCOTUS sided with Skokie, it would’ve upheld government-sponsored majoritarianism. Skokie is a predominantly Jewish suburb of Chicago, and by denying a group’s permits on the grounds of a municipal majority, the town of Skokie would’ve committed majoritarian acts against the Constitution.
    
    Majoritarianism is the claim that a nation’s/citizen public/or social body’s destiny should be determined by the ‘majority’. My statement had nothing to do with the government, and you missed the symbolism inherent in my paragraph. I cited the case because it symbolizes that people have the right to express themselves, and even if you disagree with it it’s wrong to go tearing shit down.
    
    Sure, those dudes are evil, and their message is evil- but, to remove their posters is an act of majoritarianism. It’s selfishly motivated, and based in personal bias, which based on the 1977 decision illustrates that motivation from personal bias is wrong.
- WS Walker March 5, 2018 (10:15 am)
  
  Thank you, StrategyJew for reminding us that everyone in this country has the right to profess their opinions, no mafter how repugnant. If you don’t agree with this group’s agenda, do something positive to combat it.
- James March 5, 2018 (10:41 am)
  
  @THESTRATEGYJEW
  
  Yeah, nah. Allowing fascists to organize for pogroms against people isn’t going to be allowed by the populace. The Constitution can say whatever it wants. One of the main faults in liberal democracy is that fascism uses protections to then do away with those protections once they’ve used them to organize until their powerful enough, then they show up at your door, and you don’t get those protections. Maybe ask someone in your family about that?
  
  They won’t be tolerated.
  - Niko March 5, 2018 (1:00 pm)
    
    James, when has IE ever advocated “pogroms?” That’s absolutely absurd!
  - thestrategyjew March 8, 2018 (10:16 am)
    
    James,
    
    You are too reactionary. Also, I advise against putting to use the word “pogrom’ too unconstructively for the sake of a weak argument. As we say in Queens: “Don’t ever bring relish to a summer BBQ.” In 1917- shortly after the Great War, my grandma walked from a small village near Kiev, Ukraine to Rotterdam with her 5 siblings and mother to escape from the tail-end of the Pogroms. Thankfully, she left because the entire village was send to Buchenwald 20 years later.
    
    On a more happy note, I fear you misinterpret the meaning of ‘Fascism.’ The true essence of argument behind my statement is public majoritarianism. In well-developed neo-liberal orders, majoritarianism is diminished in such well-organized liberal democratic societies. I framed the definition of majoritarianism in the above response to SeaOpGal. Majoritarianism is espoused in my statement as the motivation for tearing down someone’s or a groups’s ideals or beliefs. Tearing shit down because you think it’s wrong is worse than hanging a poster, which can be perceived as a message of hate. In this country, you cannot tear or destroy a social/public/religious/minority idea because it runs counter to who we are as a country.
    
    However, as of recent American society has transformed. The 2016 Elections are mainstream currents of the social undercurrents in sociopolitical expression, and such alterations in our sociopolitical fabric have bi-furcated American society at-large. Majoritarianism is coming from both the right and left in the form of Trump & Sanders (as well as manifesting from other factions). Both sides of right/left-wing majoritarianism claim their ideals to determine America’s destiny. I don’t think the left and right are correct, and neither should you. Social competition in the sociopolitical arena isn’t a zero-sum game, dude.
    
    Neo-Nazi’s- like their darker cousins the Black Panthers have the right to express themselves socially. Read David Duke’s “My Awakening” or Eldridge Cleaver’s “Soul On Fire.” Organizing a racial minority to combat perceived public endangerment to their minority is as old a story as the Zoroastrians in the Roman Empire. We should think about this before we go destroying temples, tearing down posters, and yelling POGROMS!
- BookemDano March 5, 2018 (12:06 pm)
  
  @StrategyJew, Yeah no, I don’t want to get the government involved in fighting fascism from the standpoint that any government policy is immediately going to be used against leftists. However, that doesn’t stop me as a private individual, a Jew, as a member from humanity from doing all I can to confront and shutdown whenever and wherever they’re trying to organize. They don’t have a constitutional right to have everyone else shut up while they argue for genocide.
- Fred Jones March 5, 2018 (8:47 pm)
  
  @StrategyJew, good for you to stand up for the Constitution and “diversity” of opinions, as disagreeable as they may be.
  
  It’s amazing how quick some folks are to give-up their, and other’s, Constitutional rights, and then accuse others of being Fascist.

Gina March 4, 2018 (1:09 pm)

I saw these posters at California and Charlestown, thought it was some weird music group.

rejectintentionaltargeting March 4, 2018 (1:09 pm)

it is not a coincidence these are posted in and around a high school. whoever posted them is targeting teenagers to join their group-o-thugs. i’d like to think the kids that go to wshs are smart enough to see through this. they are generally very accepting and tolerant. i’d be curious to know if similar flyers have been seen today in and around the sealth/denny neighborhood.

AlkiStu March 4, 2018 (1:58 pm)

If you want to REALLY be an opposition to these growing influences in our country, region and neighborhoods consider joining Hate Free Delridge. Do not just “like”. Instead join them at their intervention training seminars and West Seattle Meaningful Movies where solutionary discussions and actions are shared.

Gene March 4, 2018 (2:23 pm)

Please- if you see one- take it down- no room for hate.

Miles March 4, 2018 (2:23 pm)

When will the thirty percent of this country snap out of it and admit Trump is condoning this. Oh yah, they agree with it but are too cowardly to admit it. These people are in the Congress and Seanate……and of course the White House…… VOTE!!!!

Jon March 6, 2018 (3:17 pm)

“These people…”

Like I tried to explain before: things happen for a reason. Maybe not being able to just talk to your neighbors without having a panic attack about everything has something to do with the pushback you’re seeing?

Jon March 4, 2018 (2:31 pm)

So what? Why drum up panic and increase the gulf of divide over such nonsense?

First of all, the SPLC are a bunch of clowns and shouldn’t be taken seriously on any matter. They declared that “👌” is a symbol of White Supremacy (along with Pepe the frog, drinking milk, et cetera). Anyone who performed even a college freshman level of digging into the SLPC would understand that they’re not an authority on anything. Words That Should Probably Have Meaning have all but lost their meaning over the last few years; partially because of the SPLC. So, there’s that.

Second, If you don’t like IE or their ideas, that’s fine. It’s a free country and you’re allowed to dislike or criticize things (well, in most cases, anyway). I don’t particularly care for IE, myself (or any other group that puts up posters, for that matter); but they probably only have a few hundred ‘members’ and aren’t a serious threat to anything or to anyone. It could also just be some college-aged kids trolling the reactionary populace (which is my guess) because they get a laugh from making it in the news. Either way, things like this happen for a reason and perhaps it’s time society reflected upon its own actions to ask itself how to better deescalate the needlessly divisive Identity Politics in this country before things get much worse and we actually have something to fear. If you adopt and empower extremism, expect an equal or greater response from the opposite end of the spectrum.

Perhaps it’s time to bring it back somewhere towards the middle. Just a thought.

Lagartija Nick March 4, 2018 (6:45 pm)

Never once in the history of anything has ignoring a problem made it go away.
- CAM March 4, 2018 (7:04 pm)
  
  Unfortunately, Jon isn’t just advocating ignoring this. He’s actively denying that it has any meaning or negative impact. That’s a much bigger problem.
  - Lagartija Nick March 4, 2018 (8:06 pm)
    
    I’m well aware of that but what I’d really like to say to these “people” would probably get me banned from the WSB.
  - Jon March 6, 2018 (3:25 pm)
    
    It doesn’t have any “negative impact” outside of making you upset; words are just that — words. You aren’t protected from taking offense. And if a random poster upsets you that much, and it isn’t on private property, go right ahead and bin it. I don’t care. Just don’t cry foul when someone does it to a poster you seem to care about.
    
    Unless someone is breaking the law by making actionable threats, so what? It’s not your right to silence others who may offend you with their ideas or speech. It’s absolutely your right to present ideas counter to theirs or to walk away. The point is: you don’t have a right to silence others, regardless of repugnant you may view their position.
    
    Everything is such a problem now, isn’t it? Absolutely every single little thing is The Next Big Battle, right? Freedom of Speech is a big problem!
    
    Let me know how that works out for you. You’ll tire yourself out faster than the iPhone-carrying “Anarchists” who routinely block our busses downtown.
melissa March 4, 2018 (8:42 pm)

Isn’t it nice that you don’t “particularly like” a group that wants me and my children (but not my husband) and so many others dead, or at least incapacitated. It must be relaxing to be able to disregard encroaching fascism and active hate groups. People of color, immigrants, LGBTQ people, Jews, Muslims, and so many other groups are decidedly not relaxed right now. We’ve seen an increase in violent acts towards people like ourselves as well as threats to our rights and liberties. So, no, I won’t move towards your idea of a middle because it endangers, and in many cases damages, those most at risk in this country.
- Nuko March 5, 2018 (7:21 am)
  
  Melissa, IE doesn’t want you “dead.” That’s absolutely ridiculous and quite frankly, a slur.
  
  Identity Evropa is a white advocacy group just like Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, etc., have advocacy groups for themselves, whites need one because we are fast becoming a minority group. Look, we don’t go around saying the NAACP wants to see all white people “dead”, just because they focus their acdvocacy for African Americans.
  - Admiral Mom March 5, 2018 (5:18 pm)
    
    Seattle already has authentic heritage organizations that don’t lump all ‘white’ people into a pseudo ‘European’ group.
    
    https://polishfestivalseattle.org/
    
    http://festaseattle.com/
    
    http://www.croatiafest.org/
    
    https://www.lifeafterhate.org/
Katie March 4, 2018 (10:11 pm)

So from your post, you have not yet grasped that symbolic gestures (like, say, salutes) and pictures (like, say, a picture of a frog) can have political meanings? Surely basic history classes would have taught you otherwise?
- Jon March 6, 2018 (3:37 pm)
  
  Haha, okay. 👌
James March 5, 2018 (10:44 am)

IE are violent thugs organizing for pogroms and genocide. They themselves have said it many, many times. Jon, we get it, you’re fascist ADJACENT, not full on fascist? Defend them all you want. You will not be allowed to organize for hatred and violence toward our neighbors in our communities. They will be rooted out.
- Jon March 6, 2018 (3:40 pm)
  
  I’ll be allowed to say whatever I want under the First Amendment, bud. Who are you, exactly? And define “rooted out”.
  
  You don’t know me or my family — and given how unhinged you appear to be, I don’t plan on inviting you over for dinner. Take a chill pill, my man.
South Park March 5, 2018 (3:59 pm)

nice whataboutism

Russian Bot March 4, 2018 (2:54 pm)

Sounds like some intelligent young men who wish to preserve their heritage just like everyone else. #settlersnotimmigrants

Lagartija Nick March 4, 2018 (6:46 pm)

Found the Identity Europa member.
- Russian Bot March 4, 2018 (9:04 pm)
  
  Perhaps, but I hear they are everywhere hohoho hahaha (spooky laugh).
  - Graham March 5, 2018 (10:10 am)
    
    Keep telling yourself that. If you’re so confident, then why are you hiding behind an anonymous troll profile. Come meet me for a beer and let’s talk about your beliefs.

AJP March 4, 2018 (2:56 pm)

“Our last chance?” I hope it’s your last gasp. Buh-bye.

AdmiralMom March 4, 2018 (3:17 pm)

Still one flier next to Hiawatha Community Center and a few next to the Admiral Safeway.

Iheartws March 4, 2018 (3:22 pm)

Thanks for the heads up. Please take them down, neighbors when you see them. You can give a heads up to the City of Seattle office of civil rights, they keep track if reported. at http://www.seattle.gov/civilrights/contact

Neighbor March 4, 2018 (3:44 pm)

Hiawatha has cameras throughout the park. They might actually have video. Bigots are stupid anyways, let’s hope they left a trail. If they don’t perhaps a few of the neighbors captured something.

Joe March 4, 2018 (4:34 pm)

I’m almost afraid to ask, but what do you propose be done to these people if they have been caught on video putting up posters?
West Seattle Hipster March 4, 2018 (5:14 pm)

There is always that pesky first amendment…….
- H March 4, 2018 (8:34 pm)
  
  Exactly West Seattle Hipster. Words can be printed and flyers can be removed – a balance.
- Tom March 5, 2018 (12:26 pm)
  
  The first amendment protects you from *Congress* making laws that silence you. It doesn’t protect you from criticism from the community or from the angry reactions that happen when you spread hateful messages.

Teechur March 4, 2018 (3:49 pm)

I work at WSHS. Our kids would (will) be riled by this. It is, in essence, a fight for the “hearts and minds” of the next generation. Most of them see this for what it is, and will have nothing to do with it (except open scorn). And the silent minority who may be influenced? Well, we keep educating, stay vigilant, and pray.

Elle Nell March 4, 2018 (4:15 pm)

Basically, our kids are so intelligent and broad minded around here that I have absolutely NO worries that they will see these and act accordingly… with tolerance and their fist held high!!! Stand up to Hate—

Curle March 4, 2018 (4:24 pm)

The British and their successors were conquerors not immigrants. Their presence was resisted almost from the beginning.

Please don’t adjust vocabulary to meet the needs of immediate political battles. Conquerer is more accurate. Just as the British were conquered by the Normans. We don’t refer to William the Conquerer as William the Immigrant for a reason.

WSB March 4, 2018 (4:34 pm)

Immigration’s dictionary definition:”the action of coming to live permanently in a foreign country.”

Whatever their reasons for coming here, they came to what had long been others’ land.
- Curle March 4, 2018 (7:28 pm)
  
  Conquered lands are, by definition, no longer foreign to the new rulers.
  - Jon March 6, 2018 (3:49 pm)
    
    Haha, how far back do you guys wanna set back the clocks? Imagine being offended by history…

MJ March 4, 2018 (4:36 pm)

Diversity make life interesting. WS is a nice diverse community, if you do not like it move. Hate has no place here.

West Seattle Hipster March 4, 2018 (5:04 pm)

This is a sad reality of the Trump/Putin era in America.

I have a feeling it will get much worse before it gets better (if it ever will).

And as far of our teenagers leading the way on affecting change, unless they will conduct change via video games or smart phones, good luck.

WSB March 4, 2018 (5:30 pm)

Smart phones figuring into change as a technological tool, and teenagers leading the way on change, yes. Most recently, see Parkland survivors. And before that movement born of violence, regarding teens causing and supporting change … see many events we’ve covered at all three of the high schools here on the peninsula in recent years (and what we cover barely scratches the surface of everything that happens) … TR
- West Seattle Hipster March 4, 2018 (7:42 pm)
  
  I fear change is a long way off if they are consuming Tide pods. As long as kids are being bullied every day at school (and they are, I have a nephew at a local school who is bullied EVERY day for being a special needs child), I highly doubt the younger generation will do much to counter Trump’s agenda.
  
  Sorry if I am negative, but I see no optimism in the younger members of society. I hope to God they prove me wrong.
  - datamuse March 5, 2018 (5:00 pm)
    
    I fear change is a long way off if they are consuming Tide pods.
    
    Oh, please. A handful of idiots do something on Youtube and you’re ready to condemn an entire generation?
    - Rusty March 5, 2018 (7:19 pm)
      
      Kind of like when a handful of idiots profess their racist views but then everyone thinks President Trump and anyone that supports him is the bogeyman behind it?
      
      Fighting hate with hate makes it tough to find the ‘good guys’. Much better to debate ideas in a free society, and show how hate is stupid and counterproductive, but for some that’s too much effort I guess.
Jon March 6, 2018 (4:03 pm)

It has nothing to do with that; it’s possible that this is simply the cyclical nature of society; which is less fatalistic and religious than it sounds — more just an observation of how society “evolves” on a social level. We are likely in the declining phase of our society. Look at how difficult it is for anyone to be civil on even the most harmless posts. You have people text-screaming that they’re being hunted down just for existing; who, in actuality, are just riding the bus to work and living a relatively normal and safe life like most of us probably do.

So long as people continue overreacting to every small issue, an equally absurd response will likely return until things become unmanageable and untenable for society as a whole. At which point, it is predicted that we will face a cataclysmic event similar to or worse than the Great Depression.

With that said, perhaps it’s time to turn down the crazy? :P
- Rusty March 6, 2018 (8:43 pm)
  
  Hmmm… wasn’t that the ‘big’ Russky plan, to pit Americans against ourselves? They don’t need more than $100g in facebook ads, a few rallies an voila – #resist, antifa, white supremacists…. and then the mob mentality sets in and millions divide themselves into opposing camps. Brilliant, simple….
  
  Seriously, hope there are enough sensible moderates to focus on preserving the Constitution and civil society – and maybe even respectful discourse on disagreements.
- Rusty March 6, 2018 (9:26 pm)
  
  Oh, almost forgot – anybody on here ever hear of Daryl Davis? Turns out that yeah, talking to each other CAN be a lot more effective than mob hate:
  
  http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
  
  There’s a great documentary about this amazing man, I would highly recommend it.
  - Rusty March 6, 2018 (9:41 pm)
    
    https://accidentalcourtesy.com

Mike March 4, 2018 (5:49 pm)

Time to exercise my first amendment rights and take photos of these people in public places. Then send it to SPD. This gets me really heated. I’ll stop now, before I get banned from WSB.

Niko March 4, 2018 (6:12 pm)

Putting up posters isn’t illegal. The posters aren’t even remotely offensive, but even if they were, it’s freedom of speech.
- Lagartija Nick March 4, 2018 (8:09 pm)
  
  The posters themselves aren’t inherently offensive but the ideology behind them is and should be called out as such every single time.
- Lagartija Nick March 4, 2018 (8:14 pm)
  
  Public shaming is also free speech.
- Mike March 4, 2018 (8:29 pm)
  
  Oh, you don’t know ? It’s against the law to put a handbill, sign or poster on the cities utility poles, lampposts, city owned structure, tree or shrub.
- RedStars March 5, 2018 (4:35 pm)
  
  Taking a photograph of someone in the public, posting up fliers is not illegal. Taking said photos and distributing them to alert the neighborhood who is promoting fascism and white supremacy there is not illegal. If these folks are so proud then they should leap at the chance to be publicized for their efforts.
  - Niko March 11, 2018 (10:11 am)
    
    Oh but “it’s illegal to post fliers” now apparently, so where are you going to post those pictures my dude?
West Seattle Hipster March 4, 2018 (7:42 pm)

Not likely SPD will do anything.
- Mike March 4, 2018 (8:30 pm)
  
  They will if enough people raise the issue and make a big enough stink about it.

Kathy March 4, 2018 (5:58 pm)

Rather than tear them down I think I would have marked them up with a felt pen “racist / fascist / neo-nazi group” so people know them for what they are, since the words on the poster are intentionally oblique.

H March 4, 2018 (8:38 pm)

That’s a good idea Kathy.

ScubaFrog March 4, 2018 (8:29 pm)

Exposing their identities is important for our safety. We should all know who these monsters are.

Trump and the GOP have given these racists a mouthpiece. Tragic.

Jeannie March 4, 2018 (9:35 pm)

Why are these people who call themselves “supremacists” always the opposite? Nothing supreme about them. Ugly on the inside and out, stupid, mean and hateful – definitely inferior creatures. There’s no “middle ground” here. That’s like tRump infamously referring to “both sides” re Charlottesville. This is a matter of human decency. But I do agree with Scubafrog – I’d love to see moderate Republicans (are there any left?) speak out about the mess that tRump has been instrumental in creating.

Canton March 4, 2018 (11:16 pm)

Unfortunately, these sign posters probably hide in the darkness to staple their hate to poles. How about they organize a public forum, with no chairs, and see how their message comes across.

Question Authority March 5, 2018 (7:50 am)

Why no chairs? Are you afraid of chairs or of people sitting down as that seems strange?
- Canton March 5, 2018 (10:28 pm)
  
  The point was, if this forum ever materialized, don’t think people would be sitting for very long.

Fascists get out. March 5, 2018 (5:50 am)

Rip them down or cover them up. The act of doing so is quite lawful.

Jim March 5, 2018 (7:15 am)

Let them speak – do you really think their message is so compelling that it has to be silenced? These kind of reactions exponentially multiply their exposure and radical credibility. The quickest way to make such groups unappealing is to let them speak openly.

CAM March 5, 2018 (8:25 am)

I would say that the damage that these groups do to the individuals they are targeting by posting these views publically makes it beneficial to take them down.
Tristan March 5, 2018 (8:42 am)

No, Jim. Morality, good, conscious morality, is a struggle that needs be joined. If you sit it out then you are guilty. We see something hateful, something wrong, something inappropriate, something that incites racism, we say something, we do something.

You write that the “quickest way to make such groups unappealing is to let them speak openly.” A couple points:

1) they aren’t speaking openly. They aren’t speaking at all, they are skulking around putting up advertisements–this is no dialogue, there is no one to confront or speak with.

2) mere exposure matters. Yet another study recently came out that shows we benchmark morality and justice on perceived norms. The more of this shit we have to deal with the more normal anti-immigrant idiocy will seem, and the more normal hatred and violence will seem. This is not right and should be fought.

3) as someone put it so well earlier in this thread “Never once in the history of anything has ignoring a problem made it go away.” (Thanks Lagartija Nick).
- pjmanley March 5, 2018 (12:38 pm)
  
  @Tristan: So let’s be clear here. Are you advocating the elimination or purging of the people who hold those despicable views, or what? By what method do you suggest we make the problem “go away?” Or what do you mean by that? I would generally agree that ignoring a problem may not make it go away, but it goes a long way in that direction, reducing it’s reach and impact to as close to nothing as possible. Like polio, we can virtually eliminate toxic ideas we despise, but killing them off entirely is beyond our capability. I don’t think we’ll ever reach the point where no neo Nazis exist anywhere on planet Earth. But does that mean they’ll have any impact on my life or that anything short of elimination or eradication is comforting Nazis? No, it doesn’t.
  - tristan March 5, 2018 (1:06 pm)
    
    PJ,
    
    Where on earth did you get the idea that I wanted to eliminate or purge people? That’s so far from anything I said that I’m not even sure how to respond. I guess I’ll just say that no, I’m not advocating the elimination or purging of people, no matter their views. I’d certainly like to convince people that some views are nicer than others, that we should work hard on being kind and sharing this world, but that’s about ideas and views, not about people per se.
    
    What I am trying to advocate is responding rather than ignoring. In this specific case I honestly believe that removing the posters and discussing why they are not wanted in our community is a better way of reducing their message than simply leaving them up. I see your point that simply ignoring them might also work–and I share your notion that we might never “…reach the point where no neo Nazis exist anywhere on planet Earth.” But I do think we differ on the specifics of how to respond to what you and I seem to agree are the toxic ideas espoused by the posters.
    - pjmanley March 5, 2018 (1:55 pm)
      
      @Tristan: Good! Now you know how I felt when you thought I was telling people it was wrong to take down posters, when I said the opposite! Deuce! These topics get hyperbolic quick and the rhetoric catches fire. We need not panic when we have the tools to deal with crap like this, legally, peacefully, and forcefully, as we’ve done many times before, without violence, mayhem and stupidity like we’ve seen so much of in the past couple years, where if you’re not 100% WITH somebody else’s pet cause, then you’re automatically slotted AGAINST it, and, of course, therefore, labeled as a Nazi by somebody who never heard the story of the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
    - Tristan March 5, 2018 (3:07 pm)
      
      @PJ,
      
      Well, first I was responding to something that a user named Jim wrote–unsure if that is you or someone else, but they wrote “Let them speak – do you really think their message is so compelling that it has to be silenced?” And I think a reasonable interpretation of that would be we shouldn’t tear down the posters.
      
      As for the posts ascribed to PJ, I mean, yeah… I guess I didn’t think you were for taking down the posters either, since you wrote things like “Silencing everything you consider morally bad, or even hateful, is what leads us down the road toward fascism and one-party (or mob) rule,” and “If we want to continue to live in a free and open society, we have to occasionally hold our noses, tolerate, then legally respond to the stench of groups we don’t like, find deplorable or even threatening, at times.”
      
      Given those words it just really, really didn’t feel like you were saying taking down the posters was the right thing to do. I honestly thought that your “hold our noses” comment clearly indicated you thought we should just ignore the posters and walk on by.
    - Hurley March 5, 2018 (6:24 pm)
      
      Historically speaking the Nazi’s and fascists in general pale in comparison to the communists when it comes to evil and atrocity. Yet we have no problem letting them have a political party and actually run candidates in our elections and they’re not even some of the real wackos that we let run. So I doubt that allowing any group to formulate, protest, campaign, and take part in the political process, is going to hurt our country that much. Transparency is the ultimate disinfectant, shutting down someone’s speech due to a totally speculative definition of “hate speech” is actually the real fascist response.

JoB March 5, 2018 (8:19 am)

your vote matters..
their opinions aren’t the issue
the fact that they have the ears of those who enact our laws is..

Steve Duda March 5, 2018 (8:55 am)

Actually, Mike, postering is completely legal in the city of Seattle.

–thee

jason March 5, 2018 (9:30 am)

Actually….RCW 70.54.090
- CAM March 5, 2018 (9:53 am)
  
  Actually, see Seattle Municipal Code 15.48.105. https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code?nodeId=TIT15STSIUS_SUBTITLE_ISTUSOR_CH15.48MIAC_15.48.105COAPREPO
- Easily done March 5, 2018 (10:01 am)
  
  Unless its for a missing pet or person, I take them down as I did with one on a pole outside of the school. Happy to help the group waste money.
  - Goulash March 5, 2018 (10:39 am)
    
    Depends if it is a city owned pole or utility-owned pole. I take offensive signs down too, but the act of doing so is also illegal, based on the city code cited above
    - 56bricks March 5, 2018 (10:51 am)
      
      So YOU are the decider of what is offensive? Guess that makes you special and gives you the special rights pass.

Admiral Mom March 5, 2018 (9:00 am)

FYI… Seattle has many wonderful festivals and groups that are dedicated to teaching and celebrating specific European cultures without the hateful inclusion of racism. And anyone who has stumbled into a group like this (that hides in darkness and targets the young) can find less fear and manipulation in these well established organizations…

https://www.lifeafterhate.org/

http://irishclub.org/irish-festival-seattle/

http://swedishclubnw.org/

http://www.fenpnw.org/events/french-fest/

DSC March 5, 2018 (9:47 am)

Disgusting. Will be educating my MMS student on this group and what they stand for so he is informed before being advertised to. Gross.

pjmanley March 5, 2018 (10:07 am)

Silencing everything you consider morally bad, or even hateful, is what leads us down the road toward fascism and one-party (or mob) rule. The collective hysteria, anger and desire for vengeance whipped up by these posters means they hit their target, which was exposure. We’ve all seen this before, and the appropriate response to speech you disagree with, find offensive, scary and reprehensible is better speech that advocates and encourages against it. If you want to remove posters, go ahead. But in the U.S., the First Amendment has been interpreted to allow Nazis to march through Skokie, Illinois – Actual living, breathing, American born and bred Nazis, i.e, the real thing. That’s the law, like it or not, and the reasoning behind it – protecting and allowing the expression of minority viewpoints against mob rule – is sound. Have faith in the First Amendment and use it appropriately to defeat the philosophy of groups like this in the marketplace of ideas. If we want to continue to live in a free and open society, we have to occasionally hold our noses, tolerate, then legally respond to the stench of groups we don’t like, find deplorable or even threatening, at times. Violence is never the answer, and neither is silencing viewpoints you disagree with, no matter how offensive you find them. It will always come back to bite you in the butt. Always has. Always will.

James March 5, 2018 (10:52 am)

PJ Manley,

No, actually fascists organizing and recruiting to carry out violence against our neighbors is what leads to fascism. See, for example, the BUP in Britain, the Blackshirts in Italy, CasaPound in Italy now, the examples are numerous, and now, obviously they’re back again here.

The first amendment may have something to say about how the government can react to these things, but the community will do what is necessary to protect itself, and close the gap in the weaknesses that liberal democracy allows for groups that literally want to organize to kill non-white people, and suspend those same protections for everyone else. This is the paradox of tolerance. You expect Nazis to play fair and play by YOUR rules. They will not. They’ll kill you neighbors, then you, then laugh about how dumb you were to beleive they’d play by the rules.

The people who have fought back against hate speech laws for the last fifty years are the progenitors of these self-same fascists; that you would call out people protecting others from their pogroms and violence says a lot about your understanding of freedom and equality. In fact, it’s PRECISELY the same argument that they push on Stormfront.
- James March 5, 2018 (11:01 am)
  
  “Silencing everything you consider morally bad, or even hateful, is what leads us down the road toward fascism and one-party (or mob) rule.”
  
  Interesting; Did Britain become fascist after the battle of Cable Street? Or did they rid themselves of violent Nazis in the streets for the next forty years? When they showed up again, and the British fought back again in the 70s, did Britain all of a sudden turn fascist? Nope!
  
  So obviously, you’re either misinformed, or laying down cover fire for these people for some odd reason. Saying no to fascists with physical force works. It always has. It’s the only thing that works. Just ask the fascists.
- pjmanley March 5, 2018 (1:24 pm)
  
  @James wrote: “Saying no to fascists with physical force works. It always has. It’s the only thing that works. Just ask the fascists.” So violence, anarchy, mob rule and defiance of the Constitution are the ONLY answer or response. Thanks @James. Try not to smash too many windows, burn too many dumpsters & block too much traffic next time you’re out punching Nazis.
  - ScubaFrog March 5, 2018 (4:22 pm)
    
    It’s sad because you don’t get it. Your ‘tolerance’ approach to a group of violent extremists is naïve. In Charlottesville they were beating a young black man, he was on the ground, and several pro-Nazis were hitting him with sticks and beating him. This scene repeated itself over and over. This is what your tolerance got us.
    
    Then a man identifying as a nazi drove his car through a crowd of peaceful protesters, killing a young woman. Again, this is what your tolerance got us.
    
    It sounds like your tolerance is a good way to get historically-victimized and marginalized groups killed. sadly If someone disagrees with you, you accuse them of being violent: “smash too many windows, burn too many dumpsters & block too much traffic next time you’re out punching Nazis”. Then you say they’re “crying wolf”
    
    PJMANLEY one must ask if you’re not the very people We’re up against.
    - pjmanley March 5, 2018 (10:15 pm)
      
      @Scubafrog: Have you never learned that Discretion is the better part of Valor? If you’re advocating for physical force, then yes, I’m against you for wanting people to react like ignorant thugs instead of intelligent adults to the situation at hand. You “don’t get” how the First Amendment you’re oblivious to works to protect minority viewpoints – those same marginalized groups you claim to care about. But perhaps you didn’t read that post. As for “accusing people of being violent,” James above is advocating physical force, i.e., violence, in response to offensive speech, so it’s not an accusation, but a fact. That theory equates words with words with violence, thereby escalating exchanges of words into violence, making every situation like this exponentially worse. Yes, I’m against that. Always.
  - Jon March 6, 2018 (4:16 pm)
    
    I like you. :)
Tristan March 5, 2018 (11:23 am)

PJMANLEY,

Nah.

You seem to think it’s wrong to take down the posters, but you write “…the appropriate response to speech you disagree with, find offensive, scary and reprehensible is better speech that advocates and encourages against it.” Well, in this case it’s not speech–there is no speaker–it’s a poster. And you know what’s better than that poster? A blank wall, a naked telephone pole. So the way I “encourage against” (can we just say ‘discourage’?) hate groups advertising with posters is by taking down the posters.

I’m not hysterical or angry, I don’t have a “desire for vengeance”; at most I’m a bit sad and tired. But I will not do nothing. I will not, as you suggest, hold my nose and tolerate the stench. The answer to intolerance is not tolerance–that, I must insist, is the dangerous path you should worry about. (Popper of course wrote of this as the paradox of tolerance (discussed in The Open Society and Its Enemies))
- pjmanley March 5, 2018 (12:20 pm)
  
  @Tristan: No. You got me wrong and apparently missed or misconstrued where I wrote: “If you want to take down posters, go ahead.” I am advocating that people act within the law and maintain peace, versus mob rule and anarchy, which always leads to violence. Taking down posters is a fine response, IMO, much like painting over graffiti. If we can take posters down as fast or faster then they can post them, we’ll win the battle by attrition and wearing them out. Fine by me. Beyond that, I think it still means something to “be an American,” or at least it should. A lot of people sacrificed and died for our rights and I wish people understood and respected them more than we seem to.
Douglas March 5, 2018 (11:38 am)

Don’t spoil the fun with your rational thought and logical advice.I had my popcorn all ready. This mob was going places.
Hurley59 March 5, 2018 (8:00 pm)

Amen brother

wscommuter March 5, 2018 (11:18 am)

This is the fundamental agony of the Skokie decision and such. We despise these racists and haters for their vile ideas that are antithetical to what it means to be an American. But if we ban their speech, are we actually still free?

Tearing down flyers sounds good; feels good. And I’m creeped out by the idea of some racist moron sneaking around at night posting these things. But. But we citizens are not the police – it isn’t our job to rip down flyers illegally posted on a light pole. The fact that it is illegal to post on light poles for any purpose doesn’t mean that we are individually empowered to tear down the flyers that contain content we disagree with.

If you are removing a flyer because of its content, that strikes me as un-American. Just as un-American as making it a crime to burn the flag, which is another form of very unpopular protest and yet, correctly (in my view) protected as an expression of free speech.

Having said that, I feel the same anger and disgust at these flyers and the idiots behind them. Democracy is messy.

Tristan March 5, 2018 (11:43 am)

I don’t care about being American. I don’t care that the ideas on the posters are “antithetical to what it means to be an American.” I don’t care about being “un-American” by removing a flyer. And I don’t conflate morality and law.

I take down racist crap like that because it’s mean. And the world don’t need more mean.

ps

As numerous others have pointed out, taking down a flyer is not banning anything, it’s simply responding.

pps

You mention “…we citizens are not the police – it isn’t our job to rip down flyers illegally posted on a light pole.” Do you also feel I shouldn’t clean up random dog sh-t on the sidewalk? I mean, really.

Kono March 5, 2018 (12:42 pm)

wscommuter March 5, 2018 (2:49 pm)

@Tristan … you present a false analogy (these flyers vs. dog poop). That’s dumb equating the two. You say you “don’t care about being American” which, if true, is sad.

Unlike any other country on earth, America’s national identity – our true “ethnicity”, is the rule of law. The rule of law is rooted in our Constitutional protections that guarantee our freedoms. When the mob decides that the rule of law – in this case, freedom of speech – may be censored even though the law and the courts protect it, then we descend into the very fascism you claim to consider racist and mean.

You might want to think through the logic of your point. What’s scary is that you might have already done that … and have concluded that you get to decide who can speak and who can’t according to your definition of racism, meanness, or whatever else you think you should impose on others.

Tristan March 5, 2018 (3:29 pm)

No, it wasn’t a false analogy. I was specifically addressing your rather odd point that we shouldn’t take down the posters because “it isn’t our job.” It might not be our job to help people across the street, help beautify neighborhoods, pick up trash when we see it, or step up when we see someone being bullied or harassed but so what? Do you honestly think that means we shouldn’t do these things? That was my point.

As for the rest… I mean… “Unlike any other country on earth, America’s national identity – our true “ethnicity”, is the rule of law. The rule of law is rooted in our Constitutional protections that guarantee our freedoms.” I mean… I’m not even sure where I would start..
Jon March 6, 2018 (4:22 pm)

Quit makin’ sense. :)

I like you, too. Our country rules.

Pam March 5, 2018 (3:05 pm)

I really love this comic on free speech, I find it super helpful when I’m feeling flustered by speech arguments.

Source? XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1357/

Posters gonna post. Tear downers gonna tear down. I’m on team tear down in this case.

Kelly McCaffrey March 5, 2018 (3:55 pm)

My free speech is being exercised in tearing down those posters.

Generation Z March 5, 2018 (5:35 pm)

Looks like everyone is all riled up and justified. Don’t waste that energy! Group up and take these arguments to actual Nazis ( in internet form). Leave this safe space and go to 4 Chan/ politically incorrect/ and crush these racists. Start your own thread, mob the board,speak your mind and let the truth prevail.

ScubaFrog March 6, 2018 (5:17 pm)

Ranting online to obese neckbeards from stormfront is an exercise in mass futility and stupidity. They’ll never leave their basements, heart disease and virginity are their futures.

natandjer2004 March 5, 2018 (5:43 pm)

That is absolutely DISGUSTING!

Chris March 5, 2018 (7:54 pm)

Not even a week ago some kids in a car pulled up on the street my brother was walking his dogs on and yelled “Hey N*@%#r” out the window and shot at him with a paintball gun. Luckily they missed. These posters are not the problem. They are a symptom of a sickness that has long plagued this country. Racism is a disease and this group, the IE, is just a symptom. West Seattle is not immune. I have seen and gone through more than enough racist incidents in this area. This is a new outlet for a way of thinking thats been here, under the surface for a very long time. These groups are just a little more emboldened these days.

ScubaFrog March 6, 2018 (5:19 pm)

I know a lot of people who would have returned (real) fire, those paintball guns can resemble real firearms. I’d likely assume they were silenced firearms and returned fire myself. Those guys are playing a dangerous game.

momosmom March 6, 2018 (11:23 am)

@Chris, your brother didn’t happen to get the license plate or description of the car (paintball) I ask because a few cars have been targets to these paintballers lately and it may help catch them…for both things they are doing???

And I am sorry for your brothers encounter with these ignorant people.

kim March 6, 2018 (8:56 pm)

Chris,

What happened to your brother is horrifying. I am so sorry. Racism is fervently alive, and I’m furious. I agree with everything you say.

Rusty March 7, 2018 (7:24 am)

I posted this in a stream above, but think it’s useful for anyone coming back to check on the article – anybody on here ever hear
of Daryl Davis? Turns out that yeah, talking to each other CAN be a lot
more effective than mob hate:

http://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

There’s a great documentary about this amazing man https://accidentalcourtesy.com, I would highly recommend it. No place is immune to hatred, racism, and stupidity. Unfortunately, there are those that grow up being taught such nonsense. As Mandela said:

“No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or
his background or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they
can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more
naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”

Of course, what’s going on right now in South Africa reminds us that it is a constant struggle on all sides. Until we can treat each other with respect, we’re not going to win – yes, some people can’t / won’t change – but a good number can, and it’s worth the effort.

Reply

Admiral Mom March 9, 2018 (2:15 pm)

They are back again. Stickers were posted on the back of city signs this time. Those who are defending their free speech needn’t worry, these guys are just getting started…

“Incidents of white supremacist propaganda found on college campuses more than tripled in 2017 from the year before, according to a January report from the Anti-Defamation League, a group dedicated to fighting hate, especially anti-Semitism. Of 2017’s 346 incidents, 158 were the work of Identity Evropa, the ADL report said.“

http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2018-02-21/identity-evropa-elicits-concern-on-campus%3fcontext=amp

Info that won’t show up on their posters and stickers….

“The 30-year-old Marine veteran and leader of the white nationalist group Identity Evropa was until recently an obscure ex-con and member of a marginal hate group, but in the past three weeks he’s suddenly became an icon to the alt-right for being the man behind the fist that clocked anti-fascist protester Emily Rose Marshall at a rally of far-right groups on April 15 in Berkeley, California. “

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/05/nathan-damigo-punching-woman-berkeley-white-nationalism/