$419 citation looms if you’re caught on camera not stopping for a Seattle Public Schools bus

Alongside a school bus parked at Pathfinder K-8 on Pigeon Point, Seattle Public Schools held a media briefing this morning on the new camera-enforced crackdown on drivers who don’t stop for school buses. 120 of the 379 buses the district is using are now equipped with six cameras each – five of them in the spot you see in the top photo, one in the front-facing rear-top-left spot below – and they’ll be recording video of potential lawbreakers.

School-bus driver Ty Boulanger was at the briefing and said he sees violations often:

If an apparent violation is spotted on camera, it’ll be sent to the King County Sheriff’s Office, which is contracting with SPS to review each and every possible violation. Sgt. Ryan Abbott, who’s been the point person on that for Highline Public Schools‘ version of the program, was among those at the briefing, where it was stressed that each potential violation is reviewed by a deputy who decides whether to send it on to the driver or not.

The cameras are being installed on buses by, and remain the property of, American Traffic Solutions, the same company behind the city’s school-zone-speed-enforcement cameras and red-light-enforcement cameras. It gets $69 for every potential violation sent to KCSO for review, and other cost and revenue numbers are in this page from the School Board-approved action item that created the program (see the full document here):

The 120 camera-equipped buses are “random,” SPS says, and you won’t even see a flash. The recordings include license plates and GPS information. Warning notices are going out for those caught in the next two weeks, and then the $419 citations begin. That fee cannot be reduced, SPS tells us, while noting that violators can request a payment-installment plan. Seattle is now one of about 30 school districts in the state ticketing via bus cams.

P.S. If you’re not clear on the stop=for-school-bus law – here’s the full text.

32 Replies to "$419 citation looms if you're caught on camera not stopping for a Seattle Public Schools bus"

  • Just Wondering September 18, 2017 (2:21 pm)

    I’ think the fine amount is great.  People will pay attention if their wallet make take a hit!

  • GatewoodGuy September 18, 2017 (2:26 pm)

    Thanks! I was wondering about this the other day when I saw a bus stopped on 35th with the sign out. Based on the RCW, it seems like since 35th is more than three marked lanes, opposing traffic does not need to stop. 

  • Scott A September 18, 2017 (3:37 pm)

    I totally appreciate the good intentions behind stopping for school buses but if the law is followed as linked above and as shown in this graphic http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/what-to-do-when-a-yellow-bus-flips-that-red-sign/

    There are plenty of cases when traffic going the same direction as the bus must stop but not opposite direction traffic.  How about teaching kids that they need to exit to the sidewalk and then walk to the nearest marked or unmarked crosswalk?  As they walk home I expect they’re crossing streets so they need to learn this.  Some bus stops kids will see their classmates run in front of the school bus then at the next stop cars may not have to stop.  How confusing and dangerous is that?  How about those kids getting to school on Metro buses?  They don’t have such stop signs.

  • beef September 18, 2017 (3:43 pm)

    This is the one that always gets me. On delridge, 35th, california when people stop in the opposite direction of the school bus.

    (3) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway with three or more marked traffic lanes need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.

    A highway is described as a public road in the RCW.

    RCW 46.04.197 HIGHWAY – Highway means the entire width between the boundary lines of every way publicly maintained when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular travel.

    • LarryB September 18, 2017 (4:26 pm)

      Better for someone to stop when they don’t have to than to keep going when they shouldn’t. It may slow you down, but it’s not the end of the world.

      • beef September 18, 2017 (8:24 pm)

        I should stop at green lights then? It’s just good to know what the law is in case people wonder why traffic in the opposite direction in some situations keeps moving on school bus red lights.

      • Wsrez September 18, 2017 (11:25 pm)

        I kind of agree Larry but someone stopped unnecessarily could get rear ended by someone who knows the law in this scenario.

        • KM September 19, 2017 (8:01 am)

          Not if they’re paying attention and traveling at an appropriate distance and speed. 

  • schoolbuscams September 18, 2017 (3:45 pm)

    This is a fraud, for cash generation only. Statistically, the children face a far greater threat of death from the bus itself then by cars passing stopped buses. More info on this available at SchoolBusCameras.Info.

  • Seattlite September 18, 2017 (3:49 pm)

    Perfect amount to fine negligent drivers.  I’ve also noticed that numerous drivers don’t know to pull over when they hear sirens and see fire engines and aid cars.  What’s going on with drivers today?  I learned all of these rules before I took my driving test 51 years ago.

  • Jort September 18, 2017 (3:50 pm)

    Great news! I’m happy to hear that we are beginning to embrace a future in which we use technology to enforce our traffic safety laws. 

    I continue to hope for additional measures, such as automated speeding tickets on all city streets, so that our police can focus on keeping our communities safe while not expending resources on something that a camera can do automatically. 

    I have high hopes that Seattle and Washington State will continue to embrace automated traffic enforcement technology for the future. Lots of people think speeding is OK as long as you don’t get caught. Speeding is illegal 100% of the time you speed, and I look forward to tickets that are issued to 100% of speeders, 100% of the time.  

    • cjboffoli September 18, 2017 (4:41 pm)

      It would seem that there will come a time when the driver will be out of the equation and the car will indeed obey traffic laws (including the speed limit) at all times.  Also destined for obsolescence: high speed car chases and impaired driving.

  • Concerned September 18, 2017 (3:54 pm)

    Good. I constantly see people disregard busses and the 20 MPHIL traffic signal for Highland Elementary when I drive home from work. I hope these self absorbed people finally get the tickets they deserve

  • WSMom September 18, 2017 (3:58 pm)

    It gets confusing reading through that. I need a diagram, something like this helps.  (not sure if the laws are the same in Shoreline though)  http://www.shorelineareanews.com/2016/09/when-to-stop-for-school-bus.html

    • WSB September 18, 2017 (4:10 pm)

      It’s a state law, so should be the same. That graphic is created to the state Traffic Safety Commission, which means it’s in the public domain, so if I can find it on the WTSC’s website, I’ll add it.

  • dsa September 18, 2017 (4:27 pm)

    Please, TR, while you are looking find something that explains that the “two way left turn lane” is or is not a traffic lane for the purposes of enforcing this.  It either counts as a lane or it doesn’t,  maybe it even could be argued as a division of directions, but it isn’t that either.

    • junctioneer September 22, 2017 (8:46 pm)

      Agreed with this. It appears that a two-way left-turn lane is a traffic lane per this, but I do agree it’s not clear.

  • LarryB September 18, 2017 (4:30 pm)

    Any info on what the law is if a school bus puts its red flashers on at a corner?

    Some states, like NY,  require traffic on cross-streets to stop when a school bus is at a corner. The stop rules are just about the same as WA otherwise.

    If the law applied here, if a school bus is stopped on Raymond at the corner of 35th. all traffic on Raymond would have to stop in both directions. Traffic on 35th, on the same side as the bus would have to stop.(Note – this is hypothetical.)

  • cjboffoli September 18, 2017 (4:42 pm)

    I’d love to see them use the collected revenues to fund installation of seat belts on school buses.

    • The King September 18, 2017 (6:05 pm)

      Seat belts are already in the smaller school buses. If you are regarding the larger school buses which carry up to 90 students, that is a terrible idea. Bus drivers have a seat belt cutter and a little hammer to break windows out if necessary. So if you are the driver in an accident, the bus has rolled on its side and is filling with water, which children will you save? Getting out of a seatbelt while on your side or upside down is very difficult. In today’s lawsuit happy society I don’t know a company in their right mind that would assume the liability. 

      • cjboffoli September 18, 2017 (9:53 pm)

        @THE KING: I don’t know about the CHiPs episode you’re describing (rollover crash plus water ingress? I think you forgot the fire and snakes) but it seems that seatbelts would be just as effective at preventing injuries at low speeds as they are in cars.

        • The King September 19, 2017 (4:22 am)

          I’ve been around different types of buses for 25 years now. I’ve seen them over embankments, in rivers, in houses, over the side of bridges, broke down on railroad tracks, and on fire. Thermal events are more common on buses than most. But none of these could really happen to OUR kids right. You never did answer my question of which children would you save, nobody ever answers when I bring it up. 

          • Jon Wright September 19, 2017 (3:29 pm)

            Maybe the reason nobody ever answers your question is because it is a ridiculous hypothetical scenario. Do you have any legitimate objective data about school bus safety or just a bunch of anecdotes?

        • KM September 20, 2017 (9:40 am)

          FWIW, Lake Chelan in the 1940s. A few survivors were able to swim out, but 15 drowned. Of course, one incident doesn’t mean anything re: safety of seat belts vs no seat belts, but though I would provide another anecdote to argue over.

    • Owie September 18, 2017 (6:46 pm)

      I was in a bad accident on a school bus when I was a kid.  We were hit from behind by a dump truck.  The seat I was sitting in (very back row, of course), was shoved up, completely flat into the seat in front of it, and that seat was shoved partially into the seat in front of it.  If I had been in a seat belt, I would have died.  I was told this definitively by the EMTs after they’d used the jaws of life to take apart the back of the bus so they could get stretchers on and off.  Instead I was thrown from my seat, across the aisle into that seat and walked away with a mild concussion.
      There are more safety devices than just seat belts and I think the whole system should be considered.  I’m not saying seat belts are always bad, just that they’re not a cure-all and sometimes aren’t even a good thing.

  • Rod Clark September 18, 2017 (4:43 pm)

    The most costly part of it still must be the non-automated part, though. From the high quoted cost, I’m assuming they don’t yet have effective AI to do the video scanning. If that’s the case, then somebody at ATS has to watch all that footage every day, to pick out the potential violations. With 120 buses doing two 30 minute runs in the morning and again in the afternoon, that’s 240 hours per day of bus routes. Even if someone would watch all 6 feeds for a given bus simultaneously, and maybe speed it up 2 or 3 times normal speed while scanning it, that’s a lot of hours – maybe 80 to 120 hours a day of sped-up scanning, to catch 0.3 violators per bus or 36 a day. Add the time needed to process the violations found, and it might keep 10-15 people busy 8 hours a day just to review and process the video. Those are wild guesses about the number of people hours needed, but I imagine the people costs are likely to still be the bulk of that $69 cost per violator found. They must be looking hard at ways to use artificial intelligence to initially scan the footage, and it will become cheaper if and when they succeed at that.

    • WSB September 18, 2017 (4:57 pm)

      I’m fairly certainly they said the suspected violations are automatically sent over to KCSO, so I don’t believe there is an ATS person involved as a middleperson, but I’ll doublecheck.

      • Rod Clark September 18, 2017 (7:52 pm)

        Tracy, it looks like you’re right. ATS’s Web site, which I should have looked at in the first place, has a diagram showing how the bus-mounted equipment uses a motion detector to turn on the cameras if the bus is stopped and the flag arm is extended, and at the same time a car is moving within the motion detector’s range along the side of the bus. It then takes video of the car. Video frames are automatically extracted from the clip, that show the license plate as well as the the bus and its extended flag arm, and these are are automatically sent to the Sherrif’s office along with the video clip itself.

        So I was completely wrong with my guess about how this works. No humans involved at all. So now my question is, what actually costs $69 per snap? With 120 buses and 0.3 per bus or 36 a day of these, that’s roughly $2500 a day to ATS, in perpetuity.

        A quick Web search turns up this from New Jersey:

        http://njbikeped.org/school-bus-cameras-safety-surveillance-or-stipends/

        “Additionally, the bill redefines the penalties drivers are subject to if caught by a camera instead of a police officer: a fine of $300-$500 replaces a $100 fine, five penalty points on the drivers’ license, up to fifteen days in jail, and up to fifteen days of community service.”

        “Questions surrounding this bill are similar to those which are asked about red light cameras: is it a money grab for municipalities and camera companies, and will they actually make crossing the street safer? Assemblyman Declan O’Scanlon of Monmouth County told NJ.com that camera companies moved on to selling the products to school districts after the state ended its red light camera program.”

  • West Seattle Family September 18, 2017 (7:29 pm)

    I am embarrassed to ask this question, but I have re-read the text and do not see mention of yellow or red flashing lights.  I thought that the yellow lights meant slow down and watch to see if red lights flash, at which point you must stop and not pass the bus.  If you are in the oncoming lanes, you need to stop if there are fewer than 3 lanes.

    Is it true that you do not stop for yellow lights on the school bus, only red lights????

    Does a passing lane count, or do we all need to stop for a school bus on Roxbury or 35th Ave???

  • Chuck September 18, 2017 (7:36 pm)

    If you were not the driver of a vehicle cited in an automated camera infraction, you can sign an affidavit stating such, and the infraction will be cancelled. You are not required to tell the DOT who was driving of the vehicle.

  • anonyme September 22, 2017 (9:58 am)

    Agree with Jort and CJ about automation.  It is not OK that most traffic violations, including the most dangerous ones, have no consequences.  SPD likes to talk a lot about “education”.  There’s no better education than a whopping fine.   One example being that they are still touting education for cell phone  violations after years and years of threatening harsher penalties – while doing nothing.  It’s no coincidence that the Seattle tradition of lack of enforcement has led to a scofflaw culture where no one respects the law.

  • Jeannie September 23, 2017 (3:10 am)

    West Seattle Family, I was wondering the same thing! It used to be that you’d have to stop only if the flashing lights are red. And those laws are written in practically indecipherable legalese. This may or may not clarify things:

    1)  The driver of a vehicle upon overtaking or meeting from either direction any school bus which has stopped on the roadway for the purpose of receiving or discharging any school children shall stop the vehicle before reaching such school bus when there is in operation on said school bus a visual signal as specified in RCW 46.37.190 and said driver shall not proceed until such school bus resumes motion or the visual signals are no longer activated.

    2)RCW 46.37.190: Every school bus and private carrier bus shall, in addition to any other equipment and distinctive markings required by this chapter, be equipped with a “stop” signal upon a background not less than fourteen by eighteen inches displaying the word “stop” in letters of distinctly contrasting colors not less than eight inches high, and shall further be equipped with signal lamps mounted as high and as widely spaced laterally as practicable, which shall be capable of displaying to the front two alternately flashing red lights located at the same level and to the rear two alternately flashing red lights located at the same level and these lights shall have sufficient intensity to be visible at five hundred feet in normal sunlight.

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