How did we get here and how are 'urban villages' doing after 20 years? Review to be presented Wednesday

dsa January 26, 2015 (7:20 pm)

Traffic, crime and loss of urban charm was all predicted 20 years ago with the adoption of Urban Villages.

Michael Waldo January 26, 2015 (7:36 pm)

Making West Seattle an urban village without considering the impact on the main route out of here, the bridge, was stupid and short sighted.
7:30am over the bridge took me 15 minutes.

vincent January 26, 2015 (7:45 pm)

@dsa I too miss the blight of the old westwood village, and the charm of the new luck toy patrons.

sophista-tiki January 26, 2015 (8:40 pm)

I would have been nice to add this information to real estate listings over the last 20 yrs. so someone would know in advance if the house they were considering was potentially within the boundaries of mass density. Had I known my quiet peaceful street was going to turn into 24/7 chaos because of the urban village and transit hub problems I would not have considered the ONE HOUSE I will ever be able to buy.- FEELING SCREWED BY SEATTLE

Seattlite January 26, 2015 (8:52 pm)

The urban village concept sucks. Politicians, developers are waltzing to the bank while WS has no infrastructure to support the overdevelopment of cheaply built apartments with no parking. As dsa stated above, crime has increased along with the overdevelopment. Ingress/egress is challenging especially with the Bertha/tunnel debacle.

Jw January 26, 2015 (9:19 pm)

I think the biggest problem is that parking is seen as a luxury and not infrastructure. I’m not “pro-car” by any means, but we should be building it (underground) while we can. If it becomes unused later on the so be it. it could always be converted to something else. Locking ourselves into urban villages with no parking seems unwise. On the other hand we could build no parking and expect that our property taxes will go up to pay for transit. unfortunately we will build ourselves out of parking spaces long before metro becomes “world class”. So unless urban villages are self sustaining this could add to the pressure of having a small buisness within one. The rest of us will be shopping at the box stores.

John January 26, 2015 (9:41 pm)

sophista-tiki,
I am sorry to hear your story.
The information about zoning has always been available and technically part of a buyer’s due diligence. It is not to the financial benefit for real estate agents to find this out or to disclose it if they do know, so buyers can end up in your predicament.
Quite often the market will reflect zoning issues with lower prices.
Fortunately, this information is far easier to access now online (http://web1.seattle.gov/dpd/maps/dpdgis.aspx) than before when one had to visit DPD downtown.

John January 26, 2015 (9:58 pm)

Jw,
The whole premise of building more underground parking encourages more car ownership. Most agree there are ALREADY too many cars for our peninsula.
Any directive that adds more required parking just increases demand and drive times over the bridge.
Underground parking is designed and built just for that and such elements as reduced headroom and mechanical complications make them unfriendly for other uses.
We have had 20 years to adjust our ways, but we have done little to address the issue.
I liken it to a 20 Year Plan starting now. By kicking the can all the way to 2035, we would have nothing to worry about now…

BH January 26, 2015 (11:08 pm)

John,

I agree with your comment about Zoning – the information has always been public and accessible and it is definitely a case of buyer beware. The City is in no way responsible for making sure each buyer is educated. Zoning and development potential are often overlooked for other, far less important factors such as “Granite Countertops! Stainless Steel Appliances!”

However, I slightly disagree with your comment on real estate agents. The buyer’s agent earns a fee for providing expertise, yet very few agents I’ve ever met (fully) understand zoning, even though as Sophistika stated above, it plays out to be a very important part of a real estate purchase. I think BOTH the buyer and the buyer’s agent are responsible for fully understanding not just the house but the neighborhood it is in.

Sophistika, I am also sorry for your experience. Depending on where you are located your house may be worth more due to its development potential.

person January 27, 2015 (1:19 am)

believe it or not, west seattle is part of a city! 15 minutes to downtown on a bad day – the amazing thing is how underdeveloped west seattle still is given how great an area it is, with cheaper prices, amazing views and good access. try living in ballard – it takes at least twice as long to get anywhere from there. all the bridges in seattle get backed up, not just ours. the solution is transit that well-off people would enjoy riding – that’s really the core of why rail beats buses in getting people out of their cars in the city.

WestofJunction January 27, 2015 (1:48 am)

John, available parking does not encourage cars – after all, even renting a garage is only a small portion of the cost of owning a car.

I don’t understand the anti-car hostility. No matter what your opinion of the internal combustion engine, we now have more and more cars that are electric/hybrid. That is the wave of the future.

The urban utopiasts imagine a world where people are content to live in 600 square feet boxes that they pay the equivalent of a mortgage on a decent house for and bicycle to work. Not my idea of utopia.

Rick January 27, 2015 (8:07 am)

Due diligence is important. So not only should you peruse all current/future/proposed zoning,all of your council members political/financial leanings, local political climate that can influence the area,developers interest in local development,and many other potential situations. Then enjoy the rest of your lunch hour. Kind like a politician or developer or anyone who buys up a chunk of land only to “discover” it is now much needed for a big govt./civic or whatever project. Those folks know how to do their homework.

Born on Alki 59 January 27, 2015 (8:14 am)

Parking infrastructure could allow new residents to plug in electric vehicle. On street “pay to park” would not have this type of charging infrastructure, nor does the city have any type of long range plan to support electric vehicle charging “on street”. It seems short sighted that this type of urban density does not require the developers to have adequate parking that could support clean energy.

John January 27, 2015 (8:15 am)

Westofjunction,
Available parking does indeed encourage car usage. It is incredible to suggest otherwise.
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Renting a garage at market rate is a much larger portion of the cost of car ownership than Westofjunction thinks.
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Recently published, “Study: Parking Minimums Cost Seattle Renters $246 a Month.” That is almost $3,000 per year.
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Westofjunction’s statement about the small but growing number of electric/hybrids has nothing to do with the issue of too many cars being on the road.
If we replaced all internal combustion cars with new technologies, we would still be gridlocked on the bridge.
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Urban ‘utopiasts’ are not envisioning a world with everyone living in 600 square feet and no car. They just want that to be an option for the people who do chose to make a smaller environmental footprint.
What is wrong with that?
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Few ideas of utopia involve an hour a day in stop and go traffic.

heather January 27, 2015 (8:49 am)

I wholeheartedly agree with Persons comments above. We are incredibly undeveloped considering our views and adjacency to downtown. But especially regarding transit that a well-heeled person would enjoy using. I’ve spent the past month leaving my car parked at home and taking the bus for every outing / errand – it’s not pretty people, not pretty at all…yes, for the past month I have spent 3 hrs a day commuting from West Seattle to Ravenna, an 11 mile trip that takes the bus 90min if I’m lucky (contrary to metro trip planner and bus time apps). Such a shame as I prefer public transit (and have used it around the world). It is challenging for anyone to devote 3 hours a day to transit and it is COLD standing outside…waiting. No wonder people get sick. A rail is so much more efficient in so many ways. On the plus side, I did lose 4lbs walking more. And urban villages put groceries and such within a reasonable walking distance for most, an idea I support.

Just Tired of It All January 27, 2015 (9:15 am)

Of course it’s good we have large numbers of bus commuters out of West Seattle. But they bring their cars to park in Junction neighborhoods and catch the C Line away for the day. Their park-and-ride habits aren’t different from those in the suburbs except we have become their parking lot. They crowd the streets illegally to the corners and park across our driveways. Another hundred plus apartment units without parking are coming to the neighborhood. Guess we’ll get out the lawn chairs and flags and sell space on the lawns. It’s a free-for-all already, and there is no urban planning that can correct how people behave When they’re anonymous and in a hurry. We need alternatives.

John January 27, 2015 (9:40 am)

Just Tired,
Do you offer any alternatives?
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A coordinated bus system that identifies the communities those park- and-riders are from and services them with additional buses routes or feeder lines might be a solution.
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The flexibility of bus routes is their chief advantage over fixed rail options. There is no reason that we could not upgrade the whole bus experience to make it even more desirable for well heeled commuters.
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Not often mentioned, but due to the resurgence of the Junction, at least some of those that are perceived to be park-and-riders may be Junction business employees who can’t afford to live in West Seattle.
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Perhaps some of these park-and-ride local workers would be happy to be free of their cars and live walking distance from their jobs, maybe even a tiny 200Sq Ft $900 per month rental would be attractive.

DTK January 27, 2015 (9:55 am)

I bought a townhouse in the Junction back in 2006 on a quiet residential street. In the years that followed, I began to see what was in store for the neighborhood. That vision is apparent today with homeless sleeping in doorways, open drug use steps from daycare, yelling and screaming at all hours of the night and trash being dumped on people’s manicured lawns. Oh… did I mention there is no longer anywhere to park and the bus to downtown takes the same amount of time as the train from Auburn? I sold my townhouse last August and count it as one of the best, and most timely, decisions I’ve ever made. Those density defenders who post here either live far from the Junctions or are just unable to admit when they are wrong. Urban Village is an oxymoron and West Seattle is being destroyed by greed and shortsightedness. WS, may you rest in peace.

Jw January 27, 2015 (9:57 am)

@john
So what if we required that underground garages be built so that they could be modified in the future? Correct the ceiling heights, and ingress/egress, ect. I think that’s Much more forward thinking than just not building anything. i think most people agree with the idea of a light rail, but where will the station be? Something like the downtown bus/rail stations with buildings above would be great. We had a “hole” that was empty for years….
-remember parking is set at a market rate. People will only be paying $246/mo if there is no parking post-development. I also doubt that people think there are too many cars in west seattle, just not enough parking in some places and a bottle neck at our access points. Traffic is only bad on the bridge for a small portion of the day. if we were building commercial buildings I would be less worried, but we’re not. We’re building apartments. these people will need to commute. And while the bike/bus idea makes us all feel good, it will never be viable in seattle. Weather, hills, and under funded metro make sure of that. If we continue the way we are going it’s only going to get worse. The more options and space we build ourselves the better.

WestofJunction January 27, 2015 (10:15 am)

John, per Craigslist I see $75-120 for U Dist/Cap Hill/1st Hill., so I think that study is a bit off. You see the comments re bus ride times and the bus will never be able to match the flexibility of cars. Even for those who do the daily commute, there is no substitute for a POV.

Michael Waldo January 27, 2015 (11:51 am)

So many anti-car, pro transit folks seem to ignore or are unaware of the blue color, working class Joes and Jills who need a car, truck or van to carry their tools, paint buckets, sheet rock, plumbing pipes, gutters, windows, saws, cleaning supplies, lumber, etc and on and on. You can’t carry a 24 foot ladder on a bus. Are we only building apartments with no parking for people who work in an office downtown? Where are the working class supposed to live? Outside of the city?

Daisy January 27, 2015 (12:01 pm)

…bottom line, Seattle is a sanctuary city, bowing to the criminal activity. On top of that the anarchists who have nothing better to do than protest, cause chaos. We law abiding citizens are paying the price, but we get what we voted for and even though I have lost faith in the political/judicial system in this state, I hope things can be reversed to this far off way of so called “planning”

Sorry I put down roots January 27, 2015 (12:02 pm)

+1 dtk
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Someone said 15 minutes to downtown on a bad day. I disagree. Myself and many others have commonly experienced 45 minutes to an hour. Insane for it to take that long to go 5 – 7 miles.

wetone January 27, 2015 (12:38 pm)

John you always speak in a perfect world scenario. Real life is not even close. The urban village plans for WS area was half thought out at best and had, has no plan for the ingress, egress of village areas or for the surrounding neighborhoods of villages. City has not followed it’s own urban village plans. Common sense knows build infrastructure first, as in proper roadways/transit to handle the REAL population increase from new housing, one thing WS can never do with current road system. Seattle government has no idea or plans on how to deal with what they have created and allowing to continue. End result will be very bad traffic and parking through out area, making even the simplest things like going to the grocery store or out to dinner a much more time consuming event and if one needs to get to a medical facility ? It will be interesting to see if WS junction businesses can make it from walk-in’s as parking goes away. These impacts seem to hit home owners and families harder than renters as home owners have more to lose from the money invested in property. Good example is High Point Housing build, look at what was promised, what housing sold for when built, now look today at properties being sold within not a good picture and holding home property values down in surrounding neighborhoods. Same thing is happening to houses and condos bordering urban village areas. The urban village plan is a 20+ year old plan using data from years prior of its conception. I don’t know anyone that would use 20+yr old data for a business plan today except the city of Seattle.
John I thought you mentioned you moved here from Calif. and lived in belltown ? sorry if different John just curious.

jwright January 27, 2015 (2:37 pm)

Well doggone! We live in a growing, thriving city and there is an influx of people. Is there any part of the Seattle area that doesn’t have its share of locals complaining about development/traffic/crime/people/housing/taxes/etc.?
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However, chances are if you find a place without those challenges, there are probably many more bigger problems.

Debra January 27, 2015 (2:42 pm)

I agree wetone, a 20 year old business plan with no modifications and updates would not work in the real world…What sucessful business uses data that is old to make strategic decisions
I do think we need to be more vocal with city hall with our concerns around the density, parking etc. Those who consistantly are antiparking and pro density often really don’t have skin in game, not owning a home within west seattle. Important that we let our decision makes that the mess need to stop here..density and lack of infrasture is causing increase in crime and destroying our community. Important that are voices are heard at city hall and drown out the sillness of the idea that everyone is going to live and work in the same building or neighborhood or bike to everyplace we need to go..
Contact the mayors office and make him and others a one term office holder if they don’t listen to the neighborhoods

Joe Szilagyi January 27, 2015 (3:11 pm)

“Their park-and-ride habits aren’t different from those in the suburbs except we have become their parking lot. They crowd the streets illegally to the corners and park across our driveways.”
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This isn’t a complaint about city life, it’s a complaint about enforcement. Have you contacted JUNO, the neighborhood organization? Or the Southwest District Council? Or SPD? Or the City Council about this?

Joe Szilagyi January 27, 2015 (3:19 pm)

Without getting too deep into it, just consider:
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Starting with Downtown/Belltown/SLU/Pioneer Square, the “next residential neighborhood over” in many directions:
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West/Northwest — Lower Queen Anne, Magnolia: lots of density on the east side of Magnolia, easily comparable to West Seattle.
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North — Lower Queen Anne/Upper Queen Anne: more dense than us.
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Northeast — Eastlake/UW: more dense than us.
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East — Capitol Hill, CD et al: wildly more dense than us.
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Southeast — Beacon Hill/Rainier: mostly more dense than us.
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South — nothing much at all for anything, business/airport/industrial
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Southwest — all of us, the least dense statistically. That’s why we were pressed to absorb more, and we’re finally starting to catch up to the other neighborhoods.
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Eventually, once it gets cheaper to go a bit further out for construction and land, it will go a bit further out. Crown Hill instead of Ballard proper. Wallingford. It’s already edging north toward Northgate, Lake City. Then it will move southwest toward Westwood and White Center.
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It’s how every city on the planet grows.

NW January 27, 2015 (6:27 pm)

Makes sense Joe thanks for that perspective on where we ,West Seattle, are at in the grand scale of things. It’s just that we have always been well sort of isolated from the rest of those area geographically with the water that surrounds us and access so we react, I do and I am from here.

wetone January 27, 2015 (6:28 pm)

Your almost right Joe, most city’s grow but there have been many that economics caused conditions to go different. I could just imagine what would happen if Amazon and many of the other tech type company’s left the area, remember Boeing early 70’s. Here in WS I think everyone expects some growth and changes, but how much growth and how quick can the area handle it with the limited roads we have ? lower bridge is one lane through and handles all bicycle and pedestrian access to area along with opening anytime needed for marine traffic. The high bridge traffic moves great if I-5 is moving but if I-5 is slow WS traffic backs up quickly. Getting to WS from downtown area is same and if you cross railroad tracks add 5-20 minutes as more trains are heading this way blocking access to the only on ramp for high bridge or to access lower bridge. We have roughly 2500 new residents coming to area over the next 2yrs. from what is being built now (started or almost finished from Morgan st. north) The city has done little to help traffic/transit for area. What do people really think is going to happen ? the city knows nothing can be done with the limited roads we have and are being totally irresponsible by allowing more units to be built without having a full blown independent review done. One house replaced with one fine, but 5 units replaced with fifty and little parking com’on. The only things that will improve our traffic would be a new bridge that can handle a rail type transit system and improving traffic flow of I-5, don’t see either happening in my life time…. Seattle has dug itself into a big hole in more ways than one and that’s why people are starting to leave the sinking ship ;)

Just Tired... January 27, 2015 (6:28 pm)

Joe S…oh yes we call. Sometimes a parking enforcement officer comes by. Sometimes not. Either way there will be someone else parking the same way in the same place next day. We’ve tried nice notes and not-nice notes to the drivers. Sadly nothing works when neighborhoods are no longer seen as that. “Don’t live here – don’t care – get over it – your problem not mine”
We are, as I said…tired.

Just Tired January 27, 2015 (6:40 pm)

Also Joe S… you may not include Magnolia on your list. I know this community well and it is not an “Urban Village” and never will be. Their money has already spoken. It only looks geographically like WS. What you call their density, they like to call Interbay. It is not the same place. Really. Think MI, Clyde Hill, Medina, Magnolia.

John January 27, 2015 (7:21 pm)

Just Tired,
I agree with Joe about your problem.
Please report each incident and demand that cars blocking your driveway be towed immediately.
We are also allowed to paint our curb yellow at the driveway skirt.
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Wetone,
I speak of the compromised scenario we now enjoy due to everyone thinking we just ignore our growth. The urban plan adopted 20 years ago for West Seattle and the other worse-off neighborhoods Joe cites acknowledged there was nowhere to add capacity to our roads.
Single vehicle, single occupant car commuting were not the future.
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Wetones’ fears of the Junction business collapse should be viewed in the context of other denser, higher capacity parking neighborhoods from Downtown to Capitol Hill, Ballard, Fremont and even Georgetown. They all are thriving despite problems finding street parking.
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I think it pointless to make insinuations of where people came from, “John I thought you mentioned you moved here from Calif. and lived in belltown?” and “Those who consistantly (sic) are antiparking and pro density often really don’t have skin in game, not owning a home within west seattle.”
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I believe we all have skin in the game. Even if we are late arrivals, everyone is welcome.

Eaglelover January 27, 2015 (8:23 pm)

So I live in a neighborhood that has some of these apartments with no parking, and while we love west Seattle we don’t like some of the cars that sit for ever (I can call them in but we do things differently in WS) and its like they forget where they’re parked or don’t use them often. I like others moved to west Seattle to be a little away from the density and not be overrun like othe neighborhoods, wish I had a job to take the bus to DT but that, but it’s really not working out that way. Plus one of the many things that hooked me here was easy weekend access to th mountains. I’m just saying lets not turn it into Belltown (good for that location) and learn from other cities that have gone through some of this and not make it a blanket idea.

Born on Alki 59 January 28, 2015 (6:39 am)

John,
Trust me, West Seattle was never a “worse off” neighborhood 20 years ago. Cars or no cars, all this recent over development stinks of greed. Georgetown is a fine example of a neighborhood that was worse off 20 years ago. We like West Seattle for what it is, not what it’s not.
If people want to live in Capitol Hill, Freemont, Ballard or Belltown, fine. West Seattle has always had a small town atmosphere that has been embraced by locals, loved by newcomers and considered sort of backwoods by non residents. I love the comments on WSB. We are passionate about our little slice of heaven. No one wants it to become Lynnwood or Federal Way. Just my .02

Debra January 28, 2015 (7:37 am)

Born on Alki, I could not agree more, the issue is now how do we stop this crazy development that is occuring ..we can’t stop what has happened, and we will pay dearly for that but we need to make sure going forward that decisions are based on sound data regarding infrasture and what the community wants, not greedy developers who have no investment in our community, our lifestyle and what we hold as value..since all of this is political in one way or another, those in office and those seeking our vote need to understand they will not be elected or re-elected if they do not listen to the community and those of us who truly have make the long term investment in it

WestofJunction January 28, 2015 (7:39 am)

The most attractive cities cultivate that close in urban-suburban balance. See Atlantic Monthly’s “Young Americans: Yearning for the Suburbs, Stuck in the City”. That means the ambivance and amenities that are family friendly, not geared for transient living. If the “Urban Viilage” is so wonderful and the wave of the future, put them in Clyde Hill/Medina/Laurelhurst/Mercer Island.

John January 28, 2015 (8:43 am)

Born on Alki,
I can’t trust you when you claim West Seattle was better now 20 years ago than now.
Twenty years ago there were far fewer places to eat and drink in West Seattle and the Junction was run-down.
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Debra once again castigates all developers as greedy, out of towners who have no local investment. She is absolutely wrong on this. The much hated Blueprint and Duffus operations are West Seattle businesses. Many developers have deep West Seattle roots. There is absolutely no data provided by Debra (as usual) to back up her claims.
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Even if we voted Debra in as Mayor, she would not be able to STOP development as she expects politicians to.
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West of Junction,
Of course the areas you mention are absurd.
Put Urban Villages in Clyde Hill/Medina/Laurelhurst/Mercer Island?
Only Laurelhurst is in Seattle.
Mercer Island does have an urban village.
I feel comments like this are the height of ignorant NIMBYism. OF course West of Junction does not name Fauntleroy, North Admiral or Alki as possible urban villages.
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‘Anywhere but here”, say these West Side NIMBYs, even though urban villages and development are concerns throughout our city.

wetone January 28, 2015 (10:10 am)

Your right John as you say, “I believe we all have skin in the game. Even if we are late arrivals, everyone is welcome” I could not agree more and welcome all, but I have a hard time understanding why one moves here then pushes their ideology. Making comments about ones neighborhood as if you know area better than ones living there ? Why move somewhere if one does not like the area their moving to ? city job money. Most of the original people along with many newbie’s of WS moved here as they liked the area for what it was, placing quality of life 1st and money 2nd. But that is going away quickly as the city continues to build up area with bad 20+yr old data and done little to improve traffic in those 20+yrs. as the city knows little can and will ever be improved. (brilliant work) Don’t know where you get your info on small businesses thriving with no parking ? but I would guess the city. All I can say is I know many business owners in many of the places you mentioned and they are saying something different. Here in WS time will tell, common sense tells me one with parking will always have the edge and where I will spend my $$$. GO HAWKS !!!!!!

Born on Alki 59 January 28, 2015 (10:22 am)

John,
If you can’t value the thoughts of a lifelong 4th generation resident of West Seattle for 55+ years that is your right. The West Seattle Junction was far from run down twenty years ago, actually quite the contrary. We had/have a JCPenney, Kress department store, Wigwam, Feed store, Sportsland, Husky Deli, Rocksport, a wonderful open front fish market, multiple banks, tons of small businesses and restaurants that rival those of today, many still in business. My grandfather actually had a tailor shop on California Ave when it was a dirt road, complete with hitching post and everything. In the last twenty years West Seattle has had a dramatic increase of vagrancy, panhandlers, muggings, robberies, vandalism, drug use, grafitti etc. Hardly an improvement, but again…these are my observations. Frankly I could care less if you trust me or not, as I regard your opinion as the absurd minority.

BJG January 28, 2015 (10:34 am)

John. This all IS in my back yard. Like those you disparage for voicing opinions not like like yours, we do have value in this community. We can vote and we can participate in setting a direction we feel fits West Seattle’S character. Not all growth is bad. Certainly this out-of-scale concrete jungle is not what most of us want or call beautiful. Our son is a sub-contractor on many of these monster projects. He was raised here. His response…I’ll build all day long in West Seattle. I would NEVER live here again. It’s ugly and crowded and dangerous. He lives 50 miles away now to give his children the opportunites that he once had in West Seattle. Things change, but we want to keep what has made us a neighborhood, not just an urban bedroom project. Oh and we have always had plenty of places to shop and eat. Where did that comment come from?

Debra January 28, 2015 (11:45 am)

John I hope you hear the concerns of your neighbors who are not happy with the decisions that are being made and the impact on the community and the investments of their homes
As usual statements come across as negative and inability to hear both sides and have an appreciation that folks are unhappy
Calling people ignorant who don’t agree with you does nothing to try to influence folks to your agenda…it is as important to try to understand as it is to be understood.

Mickymse January 28, 2015 (11:52 am)

So much focus on the negative… and a number of people who clearly don’t understand the concepts of an “urban village” and all the zoning and planning that has gone on for decades. (When the building is being torn down is a little late to stop it, don’t you think?)
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What about the positives? Would you like to stop having a year-round Farmers Market? Or perhaps give back Trader Joe’s and stop the coming Whole Foods? Go back to the time when you could always find an available parking space in The Junction because no one was going there?
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Of course crime and traffic are up, there’s more people. That doesn’t actually mean the crime RATE has gone up. Several areas of West Seattle are MUCH better today in this regard.

BJG January 28, 2015 (5:11 pm)

I’d like to know, John. And you may not care to answer. Do you own property in WS? We might understand your stake in this issue better. You certainly are adamant that your opinion is the only legitimate opinion. We discuss. We don’the denigrate each other. This is something newcomers might not understand yet. We really are interested in making WS better for us all.
And Mickymse, we do understand the concepts of the urban village. I go back to the original concept and find we are lacking in critical pieces. We have density, but no reliable transit and few livable wage jobs if we stay here. It doesn’t work for us. Have you tried to shop this side of Target for basics? We haven’t had a department store since Penneys. Where do we even buy underwear? For those who have lived here awhile, we only notice loss.

Debra January 28, 2015 (7:28 pm)

BJG the question has been asked numerous times with silence which answers the question,

John January 28, 2015 (9:21 pm)

Born on Alki,
You indeed show familiarity with old West Seattle,
” The West Seattle Junction was far from run down twenty years ago, actually quite the contrary. We had/have a JCPenney, Kress department store, Wigwam, Feed store, Sportsland, Husky Deli, Rocksport, a wonderful open front fish market, multiple banks, tons of small businesses and restaurants that rival those of today, many still in business.”
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Except your ‘twenty years ago’ covers a span of perhaps fifty years of memories. That open stall fish market near Pogies disappeared at least half a century ago.
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But just an actual twenty years ago, there were very few dining and nightlife options in West Seattle.
The junction was at the tail end of a long decline brought on by the emergence of the mall culture. The old blueberry bog that we used to ice skate on became Westwood Village and the dairy farms of Kent Valley that became South Center contributed to the Junction’s decline.
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BJG,
In no way do I feel that my opinion is the only legitimate one. I go to meetings. I participate… Believe me, I know that my opinions are not welcome.
Just in this string, it is clear that most do not agree with me.
Perhaps that is why the posts get personalized as “Do you own property in WS? We might understand your stake in this issue better.”
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I agree when WSB defends residents, regardless of whether they rent or own property in our community.

WSB January 29, 2015 (12:35 am)

Arianna – thanks for participating!
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To earlier points: I do want to underscore that we don’t believe property owners have any more of a stake in our community than renters and it’s about time to throw “renters vs. owners” into the same waste can as “cars vs. bikes.” My husband and I were renters until our mid-30s. Changing to property owners didn’t make us any more committed. As I’ve confessed before, for our first decade here, I didn’t pay much attention to what was going on in my neighborhood at all. I’m embarrassed about that now, but, can’t change the past. Meantime, some of the most engaged community advocates and leaders we’ve covered in the past seven years are/were renters. They stepped up to take action. Somebody had to. Their housing choices/situations are absolutely irrelevant. The old-school notion that everyone aspires/needs to be a property owner is truly old-school. Among other reasons, a lot of great people might not be able to get a toehold into property ownership in the years ahead, not because they’re not committed, not because they’re transient, not because they don’t care – it’s because they can’t afford it. OR: They might choose to rent because a brand-new space is available for the same monthly payment as the mortgage on a scuffed old warbox. – TR

Arianna January 28, 2015 (9:26 pm)

Looks like there are two polar opposite points of view, from what one can gather talking with the neighbors – newcomers vs long-term residents. I am a relative newcomer, living near the Cali Junction for about 10 years now. Us, newcomers, absolutely love living in an urban village, we really enjoy being able to walk to over 40 restaurants, quality grocery stores, artisan small shops, etc, We welcome development, it means even more great restaurants, Whole Foods Market, more small shops, etc.

It seems the two groups are very different demographics. The newcomers are mostly younger, very well educated, higher income. They prefer to live in buildings and can pay $2,800 rent for a small 2 bdrm apartment. And they are coming in droves, by the thousands. And they do not mind the crowd. It is great to meet your friends and neighbors and hear about so many interesting projects and travels and happenings.

It would be very difficult to stop the development here. Major employers are hiring by the thousands, they want the best of the best and pay well, many people are moving to Seattle and they are the “newcomer” kind. They want to live in cool urban villages and they are willing to pay higher prices for the privilege. So the developers are building high end modern dwellings.
We understand that this is very different from what long-term residents are used to, but be reasonable, do not expect young generations to live the same way you did.
Just some examples of how “great” the Junction was when I landed here 10 years ago: looking for a bakery, I went to Borraccini’s that was celebrated as the best in Seattle – the windows were filthy, no customers in the store, they had 2 cakes for sale, quality about what you can find in a worst supermarket. At the same spot now is Bakery Nouveau. Alaska/42nd had boarded up house,s, now we have a beautiful QFC. I can go on, basically the whole place looked run down.

That is the reality. We do not want to live in the suburbs, and it sounds like the other group are not “city folk”. Well WS is a part of a growing city, close to downtown where hundreds of thousands of professionals work, so what is the solution – lots of buildings near where people work.

Arianna January 28, 2015 (10:06 pm)

DTK – good for you, hope you enjoy Living in Auburn. If you do not, it is costing you a lot of money. How? You have sold your town home in WS where the prices are skyrocketing. Someone just paid $700K for a townhouse there, actually 2 of them have been sold as soon as they hit the market. I am following real estate here very closely, and historically prices have gone up by 6.5% a year on average over last 10, similarly over the last 15 years. So if you got $500K, and appreciation is 7% a year, what you sold will be worth $984K in 10 years. Prices are likely to increase faster than before since the Chinese buyers are just starting with Seattle, and the real estate prices are now falling in China. How much will a place in Auburn, Federal Way, etc. be worth in 10 years? Not much more than today. Why? Chinese investors and private equity are not buying there, new generations are moving to cities, old folks living there are dying out, not much demand. So it is costing you an average of $48K a year before capital gain taxes to live in Auburn.

BTW, please don’t think there are less drug use there. That is laughable…A friend at work lives in Auburn in a townhouse development, she says that several people have hot tubs in their garages, drug dealers in beat up cars are circling around, she does not know any neighbors, no one can walk anywhere, there is nothing within walking distance so it is tough to meet people. Hope your neighborhood is better, but it will likely deteriorate as the time goes by.

Wish you the best, but it may turn out not the best decision of your life.

WestofJunction January 29, 2015 (6:13 am)

Arianna, I actually am a newcomer relatively speaking, and am well educated and what some would consider upper income. I did move here because of the commute and the quasi-suburban feel. We have population-wise a large cohort of young people in this country. Young people are more likely to appreciate the kinds of amenities in a center city. I know I loved that when I was younger. Get a little older and gain a family, these things are much, much less appealing. It is better for a neighborhood to attract people who want to be in a neighborhood for a few decades vs. a few years.

BJG January 29, 2015 (7:45 am)

Right you are TR. Many of us “old-timers”in WS are homeowners because it was once cheaper and easier to buy than rent. Hasn’t been that way for many years here. The WS kids who are middle-aged now went to the suburbs to afford. Almost all of us were once renters and there’s a good chance we will be again. We love our neighbors no matter what space they call home. They belong and contribute. Just know that most local homeowners don’t feel anointed or entitled to more than the rest. We do sometimes feel misunderstood…as in NIMBY statements.

John January 29, 2015 (8:32 am)

Arianna,
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful analysis.
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I am always amused by people such as DTK who move away yet ‘stay here’ posting on WSB.
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If life in Auburn is so great, why keep coming back to West Seattle with your complaints?
When people ask about skin in the game, we can agree that includes renters and homeowners, but Auburn residents?

DTK January 29, 2015 (8:38 am)

Arianna – If you think someone is going to pay $900K for a 1,200 sq. ft. townhouse in the Junction after what is about to happen then I have some land in the Florida Keys to sell you. I bought a brand new house that I decked out on a quiet street that backs up to a protected watershed with twice the square footage for the same price that I sold my townhouse for. Did I mention my three car garage? Perhaps when you can’t find any parking on the nights that you’re too frightened to walk I can rent you a space and you can ride the bus up to your favorite restaurant. I pity those who can’t see the forest for the tree.

DTK January 29, 2015 (10:17 am)

John – I have someone that I love living in West Seattle so you better believe that I have skin in the game.

John January 29, 2015 (11:07 am)

DTK,
“What is about to happen?”
Something we don’t know?
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And why don’t you rescue your loved one from West Seattle?

Arianna January 29, 2015 (11:24 am)

DTK – What is about to happen? Please enlighten us. Must be some terrible calamity, you seem terrified.

I understand city living does not agree with everyone. Personally I come from a city of 5 million and loved living there (much more interesting things to do and places to go), but got a nice job offer here, and the weather is much milder. So I have seen the larger city living before and I liked it much better than let’s call it a “small town” feel.

You don’t think prices will be very high at the Junction in 10 years? When I first moved here 10 years ago, 1,200 sqft townhomes were selling for $250K, today they can go for double that (unless they have low end kitchen and bathrooms). Why will prices continue to rise here at least at the same level as previously? In addition to investors buying in these very sought after locations, real inflation will be at least 5%. That is because businesses and investors need inflation to thrive, and the Fed will ensure we have one at least at that level, with temporary fluctuations.

So amuse yourself and check the prices in Auburn 10 years ago and today. A friend of mine sold her townhome in Kent in the summer of 2005 for $180K, and units in that development are now selling for $165K.

So, DTK you think all of us flocking to these neighborhoods are uninformed and you pity us? Let’s see who are the newcomers, who is renting and buying here – personally I know over a dozen renters, and even more owners, and most of us come here from big cities, that is where high-tech, biotech, expert professionals usually come from. Salaries are in six figures, they can certainly afford buying in Auburn, etc., but they don’t. Geez, if they could only see all the advantages of Auburn. Yes, all these people with advanced degrees, expertize, skills, money, type A people cannot figure it out and still move to the Junction. It is a puzzle, they have traveled the world, lived in several large cities, on different continents, etc., and it still does not help, they still cannot get it. Sad.

Arianna January 29, 2015 (11:48 am)

John, yes, it does get a bit old to read DTK’s insults to us idiots who live in WS.

BJG January 29, 2015 (1:33 pm)

Oh my, before this goes too far down that road, you should know the Junction was full of well-educated families in the 1950s. Some came from really big cities then too. We had lots of Boeing engineers (thanks to the GI Bill) and lots of educators who bought and raised families near where they worked. Our family had physicians, nurses,and professors. Some were high income earners I suppose. It was not considered important. We all continued to value education. Most of my WS graduating class are degreed and do we ever travel…with the disposable income we have now. Having bought low here, we will sell VERY high. So the rubes vs brilliant type A’s analogy fails. West Seattle was described by my UW sociology prof as a unique phenomenon where rich and not-so-rich owned side by side, maybe because of views, maybe because we like a mix of interesting people doing good work…all that matters in the end.

Neighbor January 30, 2015 (7:21 am)

How many of the “I got here first crowd” voted/votes against public transportation, education, and infrastructure development? If voters in Seattle had been voting for the future, rather than trying to block development so they could retain the nostalgia of a bygone era, we’d already have the necessary infrastructure in place to mitigate many of the congestion concerns, and then we’d have to complain about something else.

WestofJunction January 30, 2015 (8:06 am)

So much of the pro-density crowd imply or expressly state that anyone anti- is a rube or worse. Maybe some of us ewho are anti-density think that paying $2,000 a month for a shoebox is not smart-hip but rather ridiculous.

On parking, one thing I see here that I truly do not understand is the local penchant for parking on the wrong side of the street. This is a serious safety issue when its dark. These wrong side parkers turn on their lights as they start up their cars and it blinds oncoming traffic. I’d like to see the SPD parking enfocerment come out and give out citations. We’d get enough revenue to fill those potholes!

John January 30, 2015 (10:02 am)

Westofjunction,
“some of us who are anti-density”
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The problem with ‘anti-density’ attitude is that it offers no solutions.
The density has already arrived and demand continues.
Since all of West Seattle is platted and owned by people with a huge stake in the game, who will decide whose property needs to be evacuated due to density?
Will wetone be the first volunteer?
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Actual solutions will require a shift in expectations, assumptions and old habits. Not everyone needs cars. Not everyone needs parking.
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Everyone needs housing. Everyone needs a workable transportation system that simply cannot be achieved by building more car storage or walling off West Seattle.
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Westofjunction took as much time complaining about wrong side parkers than it would to call them in to parking enforcement.
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There are quite a few ‘discretionary’ violations that Parking Enforcement does not enforce unless a specific complaint is phoned in.
This also involves my pet peeve of vehicles parked intentionally half on the curb, planting strip or sidewalk. This ‘widens’ the street encouraging speeding and some offices refuse to cite for it.

WestofJunction January 30, 2015 (1:12 pm)

John, the half on the parking strip is a way to avoid getting side-swiped, or getting mirrors clipped. The parking on the wrong side issue is a serious safety hazzard. There is a difference.

The “everyone needs housing” issue is overblown. The developers are developing because intetest rates are artificially low. They (as usual) are overestimating the demand. Is there current demand? Yes. Is there the type of demand to absorb all of the units coming on line at their rent projections? I doubt it.

Debra January 30, 2015 (4:53 pm)

West of seattle ,
Correct and with the over development in time it will be blight, we are so short sided, but again the developers are looking at the fast buck, putting up ugly boxy construction
I bet there is not one of them that live where this construction butts up to their homes, not one

Arianna January 30, 2015 (9:00 pm)

WestofJunction – interest rates are artificially low? The banks and investors are making billions every month on these low rates. Not artificial billions, those are very real billions of dollars. The higher the rate, the higher the spread, the more profit the banks make. You want high interest rates, are you working for Mitt Romney and the like?

With influx of trillions of dollars that was not in circulation a few years ago (hoarded by the banks), there is now a lot of supply, so the rates have gone down significantly.

The carrying cost of financing for the developers is a small part of cost of development projects. If there was not a projected healthy demand, they could not get financing even with 0% rates.

Will there be enough demand for all the new housing being built? Yes, for at least 3 more years. Microsoft, Amazon, Google, biotechs, are hiring the best of the best in the world, by the thousands. Each new base job creates another 8-9 auxiliary jobs in the community.

Will the developers ultimately build too many units? Of course, it happens in every cycle. Why are you so concerned? The developers will make millions on every project, the smart among them will figure out when to slow down and survive losing a fraction of profits on any late projects. It is a form of “survival of the fittest”. Fast buck for developers? Not really, it takes more than 4 years from starting the planning to putting money in the pocket. So many things can go wrong in the meantime.

Debra – a new construction project butts up to your home? Be smart, sell for premium buck and move one street over, where the zoning is not multi-family, and buy a much nicer home for the same amount of money. If I were you, I would open a bottle of bubbly and celebrate, it is like winning a lottery.

WestofJunction January 30, 2015 (10:19 pm)

Arianna, interest rates are very low for the developers – QE has kept the rates artificially low. If the rates are allowed to rise, interest on our Federal debt would mushroom.

8 or 9 jobs? Manufacturing with local source suppliers snd subs, maybe – ala Boeing. You are at max looking at 1-3 extra jobs for non-manufacturing, and mostly low paying service jobs.

Debra won’t be so lucky – this isn’t West Bellevue – so she is looking at selling at land-only value, and if she purchased her home at or near the top of the last bubble, she is looking at a loss on sale.

Neighbor January 31, 2015 (11:48 am)

For all those who want more parking, street parking, cars, etc. Here’s an interesting thought from a study on parking (link below): http://gglass.webfactional.com/blog/2015/01/26/the-invisible-sales-tax-for-parking

Arianna January 31, 2015 (1:41 pm)

Westofjunction – Debra will sell at land value? That means land value is the highest value, even higher than what she could sell in a regular situation selling her house. That is what I meant by winning the lottery (think about it). I bet one street over is single family zoning. I see some houses around me, smaller older houses that could not be sold for $300K, but they are in multi family zoning, so they can be sold now for $500K, that is the land value. One street over, she can buy a nice newer house for that $500K….At least, that is the situation now at the Junction.

Arianna January 31, 2015 (2:13 pm)

Westof junction – not sure where you get your reasoning, but thinking that if the rates get higher, that would stop the construction of the buildings? If there is high demand for housing, the housing will get built, but will be more expensive for renters and buyers.

Our Federal debt cost would be more expensive if the mortgage rates get higher? Are you getting your information from Fox News? Our federal debt is Treasury bonds, the rates on those depend on the fiscal strength of the U.S. government, reserves, economic outlook, etc. All look excellent right now. Our debt is still high, but is reducing significantly. Why we have such high debt? Add up trillions for wars (turns out we did not get many oil contracts from Iraq in the end, but high loss of life for our guys), and the govt had to finance recovery.

Why had Obama had to take so much debt to get us out of the mud? The huge surplus that Clinton has left, that was all gone. The profits of 7 years of the highest economic expansion ever were gone by the time the rich kid Dubya left the office. Hundreds of billions of debt were put on our shoulders by the time Dubya left the office. Where is all that money? Hundreds of thousands people were losing their jobs. No one was hiring, banks were not giving loans.

The Europe has tried austerity, they are going from one recession to another. We have used investment into economy (debt, there was not much left afer Dubya), creating jobs, and there is a lot of money sloshing around now. You have no idea.
If some people spent less time listening to Rush and Fox paranoia, maybe they can move from being stuck in the Dark Ages.

WestofJunction January 31, 2015 (8:20 pm)

Arianna, ad homenimen attackes do little to sustain your point on a logical basis. First, you insinute that any one against rampant development is somehow less educated …then you have to lauch a political attack (how? no national politics were mentioned)in order to try an emotional appeal (Romney/Obama/Rush, et al).

The fact is interest rates are artificially low and this benefits debtors, including the US. Interest costs are a huge factor in development – the difference between profit and loss.

Arianna February 1, 2015 (11:45 am)

Westofjunction – let’s put a lid on this. Last point from my side.

Interest costs make the difference between profit and loss for developers? Whoa. You have obviously not seen a real life actual examples of their cost structures. So 5% interest rates for construction loans is artificially low, and if it was 10%, they would make no profit? Do you really think their bottom line profit is 5%?! They would not get out of bed for less than 35%.

Personally, I worry more about voting out the nutcases who are allowing them to build insufficient parking. They want us to ride bicycles to work, in business suits, with a bunch of files. With small kids and bags of groceries. In Seattle (rain, right?). Really?!