West Seattle traffic alert: Junction crash on California

JanS October 11, 2014 (11:53 pm)

so…correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t u-turns in mid block illegal? I know people do it all the time, but aren’t you supposed to wait until a cross street? They were probably trying to get to a parking spot going the other way…

WSB October 12, 2014 (12:01 am)

Don’t know but I recently learned that U-turns are in general a lot more legal than I thought they were. Will have to look up the RCW. (edit – the law seems pretty vague: http://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.295 )

LizG October 12, 2014 (12:32 am)

Any news on shots fired in 1300 block of California Ave SW around midnight? Police on scene.

WSB October 12, 2014 (2:07 am)

I heard scanner traffic indicating they were checking out a report of possible gunshots. Nobody’s been shot. Don’t know if they found casings or other evidence.

dsa October 12, 2014 (12:39 am)

Yeah that makes it appear u turns mid block are legal, if they don’t interfere with traffic.

Long long ago I am sure I remember my parents saying u turns were not legal in Seattle. But as I say that was long long ago.

Mike October 12, 2014 (1:52 am)

That’s an interesting find on u-turn laws, WSB. Obviously this particular incident breaks the rules since it was not safe to do the u-turn, but I didn’t know it was actually a legal thing to do outside designated u-turn marked intersections.
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I’m going to be doing a lot more u-turns now.
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Hope all involved in this incident end up ok.

Bob Dewey October 12, 2014 (2:42 am)

Copied straight from the SMC (Seattle municipal code)
“No person shall make a U turn unless such movement can be made in safety and without interfering with other traffic. No person shall make a U turn on any curve, or on the approach to or near the crest of a grade, unless the vehicle can be seen by the drivers of all other vehicles approaching from both directions within five hundred (500) feet. (RCW 46.61.295)”

Rick October 12, 2014 (3:28 am)

Don’t double yellow lines mean no U’s?

miws October 12, 2014 (5:41 am)

Add me to those that long thought U-Turns were illegal, but only in relatively recent years learned that they are not. And, I am absolutely positive, that I learned that, and that turning left over a double-yellow line were illegal, in Driver’s Ed, 40 years ago (locally). So, I don’t know when the change(s) took place, if even if that info is readily available.

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I personally think it’s almost laughable, if not a bit sad, that they rely on the U-turners judgement of “if it’s safe to do so’, in this era of people being so self-absorbed, and probably thinking “safe to do so”, is synonymous with “convenient for ME”.

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Mike

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norskgirl October 12, 2014 (7:16 am)

Isn’t there a double yellow line down the center of California at the Junction? And isn’t it illegal to cross a double yellow line? No U-turn allowed across a double yellow line.

Bill October 12, 2014 (7:55 am)

Re Bob Dewey’s SMC quote — illustrates what happens when the lawyers get ahold of a perfectly simple law that stated NO U-turns – PERIOD. and start if, anding, and butting. Note all the requirements and explain to yourself how a U-turner – who has made an instantaneous decision to U-turn can make a thorough evaluation of all the other traffic within 500 feet? U-turns should only be allowed at clearly marked locations. The vast majority of Seattle streets are too narrow and increasingly more crowded with every special interest getting to nibble away at the right-of-way.

Just Say No to U-Turns October 12, 2014 (8:30 am)

Legal or not, the ones I’ve seen performed in the Junction are seldom done without causing someone to slow down or otherwise avoid them. I had to laugh at Mike’s comment: how you can look at that accident and make a mental note to start doing MORE U-turns is funny to me. The last time I saw someone do a U-turn in traffic they were driving a white BMW and acted like the whole world could just stop and wait while they did their thing. Not saying it’s the same one, but it would not surprise me. U-turns in the Junction are just dumb.

artsea October 12, 2014 (8:30 am)

I remember reading….maybe in another state…that it was legal to make a u-turn mid-block, but not in an intersection. And, don’t forget about not crossing a double yellow line.

WSB October 12, 2014 (9:20 am)

We’ve had the discussion here before (I believe in the WSB Forum as well) and actually – you *can* cross a double yellow line to turn. They mean “no passing,” NOT “no turning.” Page 3-10 http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/docs/driverguide-en.pdf
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All this said, re: u turns, they seem risky at best, except on the widest of streets in the lightest of traffic …

JTB October 12, 2014 (8:53 am)

I interpret the code to mean you can make a U turn mid-block as long as you don’t make vehicles coming in either direction slow down to avoid hitting you, otherwise you would be interfering with the regular flow of traffic.
The maneuver that really annoys me is a three-point turn in mid-block that makes other vehicles stop in order to avoid a collision. Screams out arrogant disregard for other drivers as far as I’m concerned.

norskgirl October 12, 2014 (9:27 am)

Illegal to cross a double yellow line; so I U-turn in the Junction is illegal if there is a double yellow line.

WSB October 12, 2014 (9:41 am)

Again, it’s not illegal to *turn across* a double yellow line (our comments apparently crossed) – they prohibit passing, not turning.
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*BUT* this column from Eastern Washington earlier this year makes a good point – that only refers to the single “double yellow” line. If there is a DOUBLE DOUBLE-YELLOW LINE, that is a “painted median” and should be treated as if it were a physical barrier.
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http://auto.spokesman.com/blogs/precision-driving/2014/apr/28/crossing-double-yellow-lines/
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And WRT stopping to make a turn across a double-yellow line, if, for example, you are in the only lane going in a certain direction, this section of Seattle Municipal Code appears to say doing *that* is illegal:
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http://clerk.seattle.gov/~scripts/nph-brs.exe?s1=11.55.140&s2=&S3=&Sect4=AND&l=0&Sect3=PLURON&Sect5=CODE1&d=CODE&p=1&u=%2F~public%2Fcode1.htm&r=1&Sect6=HITOFF&f=G
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(That section of the law is titled “Left turns between intersections.”) – TR

KM October 12, 2014 (9:42 am)

I see this all the time in the Junction, it’s so frustrating! I assumed U-turns were illegal unless otherwise marked (opposite of CA). However, I’m not sure a law about driving should be left up to the judgement of Seattle-area drivers. As a collective group, we do not exercise sound judgement on the roadways–it really should be illegal to protect us from ourselves.
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JTB, I’m with you on the three point. It’s a very self-centered move to hold up traffic rather than go around the block. In general, I just wish I saw our traffic laws heavily enforced in the region.

Bob Dewey October 12, 2014 (10:03 am)

I can’t find the exact SMC but in terms or double yellow lines if they are less than 18 inches in total width then you can cross them to make turns. If they are more than 18 inches they are to be treated as a physical barrier and no crossing then period. If you couldn’t cross the smaller double yellows than nobody along 35 ave SW would be able to turn into their driveways.

Oakley34 October 12, 2014 (10:11 am)

I’ve lived here for nearly nine years, and Seattle drivers are among the worst and most distracted I ever see (although maybe it is just that in that time span drivers everywhere have become more distracted and self involved). Many, many people here don’t even use turn signals, let alone grasp the proper way to use turning lanes or properly use the space in an intersection when waiting to make a left turn at a light. Leaving it up to a driver’s discretion as to when it is safe for a U turn in this city (and possibly most cities) is inviting accidents like these. Get your heads out of your cell phones or whatever other crevice you have it shoved and get your heads back on the road when behind the wheel. Please.

Azimuth October 12, 2014 (10:32 am)

Just following this conversation, amongst people who actually care about the rules of the road, makes me realize how the state has failed at educating us all. The rules are there because humans and 2 tons of expensive metal we depend on don’t mix well. We need clarity and simplicity to make it work.

KM October 12, 2014 (11:02 am)

Azimuth-

I’m probably extreme in thinking we need to take driving tests every couple years, or annually. Driving is a privilege.

Me October 12, 2014 (11:54 am)

@oakley appx 40% of the Seattle population is ‘native’ (born and raised in the area-including myself) the rest are from all other parts of the nation, so I wouldn’t be so quick to blame ‘Seattle drivers’.
I have lived in another state for a few months, and there is more truth to our little ‘inside joke’ about ‘California drivers’ than we let on. ;)

datamuse October 12, 2014 (12:14 pm)

My takeaway from this discussion is that nobody actually knows when/where U-turns are allowed, which explains a lot.

dsa October 12, 2014 (12:20 pm)

It’s interesting that you can cross the yellow lines while my neighbor picked up a $250.00 ticket for crossing the white lines of the bus lanes on the Spokane Street Bridge.

G October 12, 2014 (12:51 pm)

Raised in West Seattle, live in LA now. Have found that, like a lot of NW stories that we grow up on, the terrible California driver is a complete myth. They are accomodating on the road, they aren’t passive-aggressive and they don’t go into slow motion when you’re waiting for them to pull out of their parking spot – god I love that! Yeah, there are good Seattle drivers too, but generally…..

Rick October 12, 2014 (1:02 pm)

“It ain’t illegal if ya don’t get caught.”

anonyme October 12, 2014 (2:08 pm)

When you’re driving a BMW, nothing is illegal. At least, that’s the attitude.

Anne October 12, 2014 (2:17 pm)

Well G- lifelong WS-ite– in Cali right now visiting- where drivers blow thru red lights like its nothing- few either don’t have turn signals- or just don’t know how to use them- speed through school crossings & ignore the crossing guards. Guess like everything it just depends on what part of a state you’re in. I’m in Long Beach/ Lakewood area.
Back to WS though- many many more drivers making u- turns in Junction area – Also many who seem to figure the NO TURN ON RED – or NO LEFT TURN ( until 7 pm) signs don’t apply to them. Selfish – self absorbed drivers are everywhere now days.

datamuse October 12, 2014 (2:55 pm)

Grew up in Washington DC, in Seattle for 18 years, visited numerous U.S. states and foreign countries. Conclusion: everyone drives terribly everywhere, except me.

JTB October 12, 2014 (3:02 pm)

I recently had the opportunity to drive in SF after being away for over fifteen years. I was struck that in spite of the greater traffic density, it was easy to quickly tune in to the flow, from Union Square to North Beach to close in freeway routes. My take was it’s because people know what they’re doing, that they have a sense of the rules of the road. You’re seldom left guessing about what to expect but you definitely need to be on top of your game in which case it’s pretty easy to get around in spite of the congestion.

KM October 12, 2014 (3:04 pm)

G-
I’m with you 100%. Having lived in CA and WA, I weep for the days of enjoyable, efficient driving, even in god-awful traffic. Oh to be able to pass in the left lane!
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dsa-
That’s great to hear that someone actually got ticketed for the bus lane crossover. I’d love to see more of it. I’ve been ticked on the WS Bridge before myself.

dsa October 12, 2014 (4:15 pm)

I believe that the term “California driver” that was considered a derogatory here 40 50 years ago is invalid now. Driving the streets and freeways of LA is not the challenge it is here. Yes they zip in and out and jump red lights, but they are quite predictable at doing so. Here it is anybody’s guess as to what the other driver is going to do. If you have not had defensive driving class, I suggest you add it to your to do list.

G October 12, 2014 (5:17 pm)

Anne,

Generally agree, you’ll find bad drivers everywhere. One annoying thing about CA drivers is that they’ll honk at the head-scratching things that no one has any control over, haven’t been able to figure that out (?). Other than that, driving down here is straightforward, people let you merge, and are pretty forgiving. People go through red lights, but it’s a necessity to turn on intersections and everyone knows the drill. I find that the pedestrian walk buttons respond quickly (you can wait forever in Seattle to cross a 40 feet) which is nice because I walk a lot. LA does have advantages, more light, bigger streets and better visibility so Seattle drivers are working against some inherent disadvantages, including rain.

But I go on….oh, and I don’t see the antagonism between drivers and hardcore bicyclists down here. Everyone seems to be less fragile about a lot of things. Been an eye-opener.

Crap, I’m going on and on. Mea culpa.

pw October 12, 2014 (7:30 pm)

I can’t believe there’s so many people on here who are ignorant of the laws that govern your daily lives! You people need to educate yourselves of the rules of the road please! No wonder traffic is so horrible, it really IS full of bad drivers

someonewhoreadsthelaws October 12, 2014 (10:37 pm)

My, my, an exciting thread. I’m from out of the area, have lived here since 94. Read up on the laws, and the updates as I can. I’m no expert of course, but have known it to be legal to do U turns anywhere it’s safe, i.e. 500 feet both directions, no impact to others. That’s it. Double yellow lines, correct, that’s to prevent passing. Thanks WSB for the clarifications. It’s help if those who don’t realize the laws, spend a little time. It’ll help avoid the endless wrongful statements based on lack of awareness of the laws. We’d all benefit from it. When’s the last time you opened a bottle of wine and read some SMC code? It’s not that hard. The post about the ‘accident’ here, though, obviously they might have benefitted from that late night reading…

Clearly October 12, 2014 (11:46 pm)

the majority of people who can read this should not be allowed to operate heavy machinery in close proximity to others. Unfortunately the majority of people who can read this think it’s their right. Car culture is one of the biggest swindles perpetuated, and one of the most successful ad campaigns ever. Everyone who perpetuates it is part of the problem.

Mel October 13, 2014 (12:17 am)

Never forget: you are always a much better and more knowledgeable driver than the other guy. Because of course you are.

phil dirt October 13, 2014 (6:30 am)

Transfusion transfusion my red corpsucles are in mass confusion never never never gonna speed again. Shoot the juice to me Bruce.

AG October 13, 2014 (8:50 am)

Interestingly to me, my husband was required to take a defensive driving course for work. In that course, SPD and WSP came in and discussed rules of the road. One that was fascinating to me was that there are apparently two conflicting laws on the books about “establishing yourself in the intersection” while waiting to turn left. One law says you can’t do it because you may be impeding traffic as the light changes, and the other says you must pull forward in order to not impede traffic behind you getting across the intersection. The students in the class asked for clarification, and the officer shrugged and said, “basically it depends on the officer whether they feel like one applies or the other at the time.”

With laws like that, it’s no wonder Seattle-ites are such poor drivers!

I Wonder October 13, 2014 (9:34 am)

After living in Torrance/Redondo Bch, I learned about the 3 car rule at green lights: wait for 3 cars to finish their left turn before you go on a green light. Miss the open left lanes on the highway for passing, the passing lanes in WA are so aggravating. I agree with the poster, LA drivers are at least predictable. Here, you never know what you’ll get. Too many D.W.A.’s.

pjmanley October 13, 2014 (9:54 am)

@Mel for the win!

This WA native agrees that CA residents are much better drivers than we provincial, self-absorbed snobs. Down there, they drive like grown-ups. Up here, too many drive like hall-monitoring control freaks. “You should’ve merged earler, nyaa, nyaa…shame on you…I’m not letting you in..” Ugh.

zark00 October 13, 2014 (3:25 pm)

Here’s the WA State Driver Guide – http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/docs/driverguide-en.pdf
A riveting read – not really :)

Double yellows indicate obstructions or a high enough speed to make passing too dangerous; aka No-Passing zone.
The same things make it unlikely to be safe for a U-Turn either.
The U-Turn itself isn’t restricted by the double yellow, but it’s a strong suggestion that this may not be the spot to make a U-Turn. And I believe it’d be easier to get an unsafe U-Turn ticket if you’re doing it over double yellows.
Not illegal per say though.

It’s also legal in Washington state to cut through a driveway – this one is weird to me. You can legally cut through a businesses driveway instead of taking a right – like at 7-11 on Avalon. There are some rules, can’t go over 10MPH maybe? Everyone has right of way over you? Can’t remember – but really a weird rule.

This is interesting, if not depressing – not only are we pretty bad as drivers, but we’re getting worse every year.
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/08/26/study-seattle-drivers-are-bad-and-getting-worse/

Chris October 14, 2014 (6:24 am)

Earlier this summer I was told by a SPD officer that turning left across the double yellow lines on Edmunds into Uptown Espresso’s parking lot was illegal. When I said I thought the lines indicated passing, not turning, restrictions, he politely but bluntly said ” No, you don’t cross double lines.” Not wanting to hold up traffic on Edmunds, or argue with an officer who looked ready to cite me for trying something illegal, I said thank you and found a parking spot on 44th instead.

I can only assume that by his interpretation of the code, u-turns would be illegal as well.