Voluntary 'Gun-Free Zone' status offered to Seattle businesses

Jim P. August 19, 2013 (2:57 pm)

Certainly looks nicer than a “We Welcome Robbers! You’re safe here.” sign. Same end result I suspect.

Will they be requiring the police to disarm before they enter?

WSB August 19, 2013 (3:02 pm)

Jim – if that wasn’t a facetious/rhetorical question, no. It’s in the FAQ. – TR

Dave August 19, 2013 (3:01 pm)

I think in theory this is a great idea however I am not sure how effective this will be to the criminal element out there with guns. Schools, theaters, and malls are some examples of gun free zones however we all know about the tragedies that have happened in “gun free” zones.

chuck and sally's van man August 19, 2013 (3:05 pm)

Goodbye Cupcake Royale. I will make a point of coming in to let you know in person that you’ve lost my business, and I will have my licensed and legal concealed-carry firearm on my person. Or will I?? Point is, you’ll never know, just as you’ve never known. Soon Mayor McSchwinn and his misguided attempts at public safety will be gone, as will a great deal of your business. Why don’t you just put up a “Please Rob Us!” sticker?

Smitty August 19, 2013 (3:15 pm)

All things being equal, I would assume this would be the tie-breaker on who to rob.

But I am not a robber, so what the heck do I know?

John August 19, 2013 (3:19 pm)

Seems like an absolutely horrible idea. Strip people of their right to protect themselves on your premises. Does that make you liable for their safety? I guess I’ll treat the signs as little placards that say “take your money elsewhere”. I hope all the bad guys that already don’t respect the law leave their firearms outside too…

Jeff August 19, 2013 (3:19 pm)

Any private business already had this right. If someone refuses to leave, you can press trespass charges. So what’s new with this?

enough August 19, 2013 (3:20 pm)

Hmmmm

Seattlite August 19, 2013 (3:32 pm)

Ridiculous…Gangs and thugs aren’t going to give up their weapons. We don’t live in lalaland. Unfortunately, we live in dangerous times. Concealed weapon permits are legal in Seattle. When will Seattle quit voting in moronic mayors?

Paul Twibell August 19, 2013 (3:35 pm)

What a stupid idea! Why not place a sign outside your business that says, “Please rob us, we won’t put up a fight”. If there was a robbery or a shooting the first thing these businesses would do is call someone with a gun. All school shootings have taken place in “Gun free zones”. The Co. Theater shooting took place at a business with a “Gun Free Zone” sign in the window. The shooter drove past two normal theaters to get there. Stupid, ineffectual idea. I will take my business to places that respect our State and Federal rights to carry a gun.

Tuesday August 19, 2013 (3:38 pm)

This stuff gets so tedious. It’s like people aren’t even considering any issue carefully anymore. Bandwagons are awesome for advertising!

DukeMalisto August 19, 2013 (3:53 pm)

Well, it would be nice to have a list of these businesses so I know where not to go. I know not everyone has been attacked or mugged in their lives, and some people choose fantasy over reality. I would rather not paint a target on my back.

Besides, doesn’t the state law supersede city? This would have to be enforced at a state level, right? No city ordinance or law can overwrite the state’s, or can someone point out the loopholes in the RCW that allow this?

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

http://www.atg.wa.gov/ConcealedWeapons/FAQ.aspx

Will they become 21+ establishments or something? Just doesn’t make sense. Might as well ban pencils. you can kill someone with a pencil if you wanted to, just like you could with a gun if you wanted to. set a gun on a table, it won’t hurt anyone. Can’t consider a comparison with a pencil as ridiculous as it’s just as insane as thinking that criminals will obey the law…

Andy August 19, 2013 (3:53 pm)

“We know this won’t stop someone determined to cause violence, but we hope that standing together and giving businesses a tool to say no to guns will change the conversation around gun violence.”

It says right there that this is being done without any expectation of reducing criminal activity. So this is, actually, targeted at law-abiding citizens, and will now make criminals out of them. If that’s “changing the conversation,” there isn’t much to talk about.

Joe August 19, 2013 (3:55 pm)

I appreciate knowing which businesses support this. I have been a law abiding gun owner for 30 years now. This list will help me know which small businesses I won’t be supporting in the junction. Too bad since I live so close I can walk there.

Peter August 19, 2013 (4:06 pm)

Jim and Dave, please provide specific examples of armed robberies in Seattle that have been prevented by customers with guns.

Rick August 19, 2013 (4:11 pm)

Just tell the bad guys they can’t have their guns either. Problem solved, right?

JAT August 19, 2013 (4:28 pm)

I suppose it’s possible that occasionally an armed bystander has prevented a gun crime from succeeding.

Possible.

But according to the CDC there are 14,000 to 19,000 non-fatal accidental shootings in the US every year (and an additional 600 deaths).

As a statement of community values and in stark counterpoint to the exceedingly well funded fear-mongering counter-message of those Rifle Association folks, I think this is great.

Every time you see that red white and blue sticker with a gold eagle with some guns clutched in its claws on the back of a car, ask yourself do you want to eat a cupcake with that guy in the room?

Could be dangerous.

NH August 19, 2013 (4:28 pm)

This idea is symbolic/a conversation starter, I’m guessing everyone can see that it’s not meant to stop someone with a gun from committing violent acts. Take the quote above for example…”We know this won’t stop someone …”

Don’t misinterpret this for something it is not.

Gawdger August 19, 2013 (4:28 pm)

I’m sure going to miss those yummy cupcakes.

AM August 19, 2013 (4:38 pm)

I love this idea. We’re a gun free household, but would be scared to post it anywhere. It seems those of us opposed to guns and that frankly hate them, are scared to speak up. Hence I’m not using my name. I will support a business that isn’t hiding a shotgun behind the counter. Thank you to those businesses for stepping up and saying no guns.

KRM66 August 19, 2013 (4:40 pm)

Looks like I will go without cupcakes. Maybe the money I save from going to these businesses I will put towards ammo.

rw August 19, 2013 (4:49 pm)

I could see business owners who happen to own guns also supporting the no guns in my establishment campaign. I don’t recall anyone saying they want to take away all guns — and even if they did, guns are supported by the constitution WITH REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS. Haven’t you ever seen a western where visitors to a saloon or other establishment were told to leave their guns at the door?

As for this new campaign, Mr. McGuinn is certainly using symbolic gestures to boost his reelection campaign. First with his minimum wage schtick, and now this. That is the critical message I get from this new “initiative.” The guy is a complete charlatan.

B August 19, 2013 (4:52 pm)

I avoided posting on this earlier because I wanted to see the reaction it would get. I have to say, I am not surprised at all with the reactions.

First off, I like how some of you people think that your right to carry a gun trumps the rights of business owners to say who and what comes into their private property.

Second, for every “customer saves everyone by having gun in store at time of robbery” story (which, by the way, I seem to have trouble ever recalling), there are (as JAT said) ten thousand stories of someone blowing their/their neighbors balls off because they were too stupid to understand how the shooty thing they carry works, or that the 9mm they shot in the general direction of the bad guy went through the wall, out the other side, and into the ten year old walking on the street.

Honestly, I’m as big a supporter of our Bill of Rights as you are (ALL of our rights, not just the 2nd) but when you act like frothing children, you should expect to be treated as such.

Jeff August 19, 2013 (4:57 pm)

Why bother complaining in person van man? The workers won’t care, and the owner is getting invites to private local appearances when the president is in town. Hardly going to change her mind.

wscommuter August 19, 2013 (5:02 pm)

Damn. I saw this blog post too late to be first on before all the pro-gun snark started (I assume there will be anti-gun snark too, but jeez, so tepid so far).

It (businesses banning guns) is a silly gesture with no teeth, agreed. As someone who supports reasonable gun restrictions (ie, banning assault rifles, armor piercing ammo and undocumented gun show sales), I find this to be more of a publicity stunt than anything meaningful.

But I’m cracking up at all the gun-nuts above who are disavowing cupcakes. Too priceless. So cute. Proof once again of the irrationality so endemic to most (but not all) poeple who identify themselves as “pro-gun”. I will be watching with baited breath for Cupcake Royale to go out of business due to the sudden absence of pistol-packing patrons.

jm_civik August 19, 2013 (5:03 pm)

The absurdity of this is that it literally does nothing and does a business who kicks someone out with a valid permit risk being sued over it?

DF August 19, 2013 (5:04 pm)

Thank you Cupcake, Royale! (I know opinions will differ, but I certainly feel safer going in there with my kids with that sign up than without it.)

And a question: do people who own guns in WS often carry them on their persons when they enter stores? What % of the time? I sorta thought that was an at-home type of thing, at least in these parts… Please set me straight (on this factual part of the issue).

Norma August 19, 2013 (5:06 pm)

I’m definitely an advocate for tighter gun controls but I think the signs are silly just as I think painting bicycles in the street and calling it a bike lane is silly. It’s all about the election and frankly it turns me off even more.

Tobias August 19, 2013 (5:08 pm)

This is why I hate politics. The mayor is the “ONLY” one benefiting from this.

metrognome August 19, 2013 (5:16 pm)

oh goodie, all the more cupcakes for me!!
.
Peter, they can’t give you any such list, which is surprising as so many people claim to carry, whether openly or concealed. Just seem to me that *someone* in the Aurora CO shootings must have been packing and wisely left it holstered. I wonder if there is a list innocent civilians who were injured or killed by an inadequately trained pistol packer who thought having a shoot-out with the bad guy was a good idea. And how come none of y’all carry a 50cal sniper rifle — then you could protect everyone in a 2,000 yd radius.

Gman206 August 19, 2013 (5:17 pm)

I believe it a farce to believe any criminal would think of this as any means of a deterrent. Camera’s, alarms, guns and guards deter bad people. Even with these threats the really bad guys will try for they don’t think like you or I. They have a different agenda then the nice people trying to make a difference, unfortunately they have never been in a situation that they think they are protecting against. I, a longtime merchant of the Junction have been in this situation and if it weren’t for many years of training there would be two added deaths in the Junction. I admire the thoughts and concerns of Merchants trying to make an attempt to make changes, but those changes need to first be met a homes, communities and schools. Teach the fundamental belief of right and wrong that has been taken away from this generation and my adult children’s. Politically correct has run a strange course… Thanks, Just my two cents.

Eric1 August 19, 2013 (5:17 pm)

I find no need to carry but when mayor McSchwinn cites Cafe Racer and Sandy Hook as reasons he loses all credibility. Both of those guys were mentally ill and shouldn’t have guns. I don’t think a sign will help in those cases. Intelligent dialogue about felons and the mentally ill will probably reduce gun crime by 90%.
.
Twenty cent cupcakes for $5 was never on my list anyway.

Mike August 19, 2013 (5:23 pm)

In regards to “chuck and sally’s van man” comment. Keep in mind that once inside these businesses you are no longer on public property and not in a public building. By walking in with a firearm, even with a conceal and carry, you are breaking federal law. You are at that point the problem with why so many are against people having a firearm on ones self. Keep that in mind, some of us don’t carry but actually know how to shoot better than those that do. Some of us actually know how to spot you in public and we will report you to authorities for breaking federal laws. The fines and potential time in jail might be worth it to you, it’s worth it to me to prevent you from accidentally shooting my family or I.

CandrewB August 19, 2013 (5:27 pm)

Peter, guns are not my issue. I don’t have one but I want the right. But I do enjoy playing devil’s advocate. Here is one, real close to home too:

http://www.komonews.com/news/archive/4118086.html

CandrewB August 19, 2013 (5:29 pm)

Ask the guys at West Seattle Coins if they are joining the gun-free zone? Easy to say when you sell cup-cakes. Ask Bank of America’s armed guards to become guards with attitude.

SEA August 19, 2013 (5:32 pm)

I’ll be happy to eat extra cupcakes for all those who don’t want them. And let me be the first to say (on this list I think) that I’m a LOT more worried that I’ll got shot by some hothead with a concealed weapons permit than I am about getting shot by a robber.

@Paul Twibell: You’re absolutely right they’ll call someone with a gun: someone who is TRAINED in how to used it properly and who has regard for the safety of bystanders. There’s a reason police don’t go storming into a hostage situation – if they did, people would die (and not just the criminal). So I’m happy to patronize business that are saying we will let the police handle public safety, rather than trying to live in the Wild Wild West (Seattle).

Gman206 August 19, 2013 (5:32 pm)

DF: Reality wise I know of a few murders in parking lots of WS Junction that never hit the news. 90% of the people who carry a gun with a c.w.p. have had some type of gun safety training. The people you say leave there’s at home usually have a limited amount of training and those are most of you accidents or home shootings. Plus these people usually freeze when it is time to use it so it is used against them. It doesn’t take a gun to cause havoc or kill… didn’t they use box cutters that brought down the airplane on 9/11? I carry a gun due to my occupation, but in most instances I would use my knife over my gun. It has been proven that a knife causes more fear than a gun, so should we post no knives also??? Food for thought. I welcome anyone trained in gun safety to be anywhere I am cause carrying… you never know what can happen these days and does. I know I’d take a bullet for your kids and give one back for their safety.

Fed up August 19, 2013 (5:39 pm)

Seattle whizzdumb.

G August 19, 2013 (5:50 pm)

This is such an off-putting campaign, especially the language of the sign itself, which is divisive. It ostracizes gun owners, even those walking by without any intention of stepping inside a business.

Absolutely, a business has every right to insist on no guns on their premises, but even then I can think of a more nuanced way to voice it.

How about, “We appreciate your business, but we’d prefer you don’t bring your firearm inside?”

The Original MB August 19, 2013 (6:00 pm)

Funny, the “no outside food or drink allowed” signs in movie theaters never stopped me from hiding candy in my pants.

DTK August 19, 2013 (6:00 pm)

After they get trespassed for open-carrying in a cupcake shop they will immediately hop in their Ford F-150’s, turn on the Dori Monson show and head to the pharmacy to pick up their E.D. medication.

chuck and sally's van man August 19, 2013 (6:05 pm)

@DF–an honest question, yours. And yes, absolutely those with concealed-carry permits carry in stores–many 100% of the time. And there’s a lot of people who do (sorry that I can’t cite statistics like our anti-gun friends, but suffice to say that in every store you go into there are likely at least a few people packing. Why? Because the law says we can. And I’d put my faith in the 2nd Amendment before I ever caved to our Mayor’s little window sticker.

Peter on Fauntleroy August 19, 2013 (6:06 pm)

All other things being equal, I will patronize businesses that ban guns over those that allow them. Thank you mayor McGinn, you’re getting my vote! And thank you Cupcake Royal, I love you even more than before!

Alki Resident August 19, 2013 (6:20 pm)

I personally have been to the gigantic memorial in Aurora,Co just a couple weeks after the shooting. I’ve never seen anything like it and I don’t want to ever again. It was the most gut wrenching thing, I was an emotional wreck seeing all the photos of the victims. Had someone been packing that day when the lunatic came in and murdered people, he wouldn’t be on trial today and in and out of a psych ward getting evaluated.
And less people would’ve been killed and injured or paralyzed.
Times have changed, the police can’t be everywhere nor can they always respond in time of dire need.
I too,will stop patronizing these places that don’t allow guns for the simple reason that now this will invite the thugs to rob at will knowing no one will be fighting back. This is a terrible idea.

westside August 19, 2013 (6:24 pm)

Any place that post unconstitutional signs will not get my business they don’t deserve it. Anyone that thinks that ccw holder are the problem need to look at the statistic fact is they are far less likely to commit a crime then the non ccw holder. Gun haters are delusional.

Eric August 19, 2013 (6:39 pm)

Hi DF,

You don’t need a CWP to have a gun in your house. As far as someone carrying in stores, it depends on the person as far as % wise.

They may carry all the time or sometimes. I have a CWP, but I don’t carry all the time.

I’m surprised there are only 29 comments. I would think that more people would be up in arms :-)drum roll

I can see both sides of the issue. I understand business owners not wanting guns in their stores, but at the same time, criminals are not going to abide by some sign being put up. Someone that has the mentality to be a criminal, certainly doesn’t have the mentality to abide by a sign being put up.

Emmyjane August 19, 2013 (6:49 pm)

I’m not even a gun loving/carrying individual and this pisses me off. What a waste of city time and resources. I’m definitely factoring this in to my vote.

Huindekmi August 19, 2013 (6:50 pm)

This is just McGinn trying to find a wedge issue and pander to his base in his attempt to get re-elected. Nothing more. Nothing less. As has been pointed out, businesses already have the right to exclude guns from their shops, and this will have no effect (positive or negative) on crime.
It’s election year PR meant to rile up the masses. Just ignore it and it will go away.

patrick on genesee hill August 19, 2013 (6:51 pm)

DF….a question for you. Why do you feel safer by simply knowing that a sign on a window states
no guns allowed? Do you really believe those that wish to do harm to you or your family, i.e.
the criminal element, really care one bit about that sign. I don’t recall West Seattle being the
hotbed of gun totin cowboys causing a single incident putting other residents in dangerous situations. I don’t recall any law abiding citizen, gun owners or non gun owners, causing anyone any bodily or property harm. It is always by the same criminal element. Why would you not be more worried about that element that roams around your block every single day and night looking for any opportunity to create havoc in our community. I know it is an emotional topic, gun control, but society really needs to put our foot down and demand the CRIMINALS be held accountable, not your fellow law abiding citizens.
By the way, I do not have a concealed permit, nor own a gun.

D.D.S August 19, 2013 (6:53 pm)

Peter
Please provide specific examples of a thug not robbing a store with a gun due to a sticker on the window.

smokeycretin9 August 19, 2013 (6:56 pm)

So, someone bent on robbing a business is going to see that sticker and think “oh crap, no guns, I better re-think this” ???

pure political posing!

SEA August 19, 2013 (7:04 pm)

Hey, you just blew a hole (pun intended) in the pro-gun argument. I guess robbers won’t see those signs and say to themselves “Hey, this is a gun-free store – it’s a good place to rob – let’s rethink our original plan of hitting the bank”. Drat!

Genesee Hill August 19, 2013 (7:04 pm)

In gun-happy USA, a rather bizarre idea from McGinn. Guns generally suck. But this idea is a bit weird…grasping at straws, perhaps…the anti-gun voters???

smokeycretin9 August 19, 2013 (7:10 pm)

really.. I am running for mayor and I say we put stickers on local businesses saying “Crime Free Zone” and we will all be alright.

Dave August 19, 2013 (7:12 pm)

Wow what a sad paranoid little burg W. Seattle is, you’d think it was like Manhattan circa 1977 out there. I feel sorry for all of you that are so afraid of “criminals” all the time.

monosyllabic girl August 19, 2013 (7:16 pm)

Arggh! Who cares?! What a politically divisive non-issue. I’d much rather the people who want to own guns have them and know how to use them safely, yes, it is basically advertising “hey, come rob us why don’t ya!”

JanS August 19, 2013 (7:18 pm)

I am so totally concerned that many o you didn’t read very carefully….it already had a disclaimer…they are just taking a stand for their businesses, which is their right. Just like your right to carry a gun everywhere, and boycotting any business you don’t agree with for any reason. Y’all need to take remedial reading, and chill out. They ain’t prying those guns from your cold, dead hands. Get over yourselves. No cupcakes for you? Oh, boohoohoo..talk about over reacting….geez…

JanS August 19, 2013 (7:19 pm)

patrick on genessee hill…look at the many comments on here, by the gun crowd…they’re atotin’ all over West Seattle, it seems….make you feel safer?

Peter August 19, 2013 (7:23 pm)

DDS, that’s a perfectly ridiculous rhetorical question that cannot be answered. On the other hand, my very specific question about how many robberies in Seattle have been stopped by business patrons carrying guns is very easy to answer: zero.

kam August 19, 2013 (7:46 pm)

If you look at the FAQ it states. Does this exclusion include individuals carrying guns with a Washington State Concealed Pistol license?
Yes. lost my business I am always carrying. So I should leave my gun in the car so someone can steal it? then you will get robbed.

Noelle August 19, 2013 (7:57 pm)

Not going to help crime. Like a bad guy is going to say to himself. “Oh, guess I can’t commit my crime here, it’s a gun free zone. Darn!” Bad people wont care. All a gun free zone does is take guns away from well meaning, law abiding, citizens. If someone wants to do something bad, they will find a way.

D.D.S August 19, 2013 (8:17 pm)

Peter,
How do You know it is zero, Maybee a Would be robber had a change of heart after noticing a carrier.

patrick on genesse hill August 19, 2013 (8:22 pm)

To JanS.. I feel neither safer, but certainly do not feel any more in danger. I would rather be in a neighborhood of law abiding citizens who carry guns, or don’t for that matter, than punks thugs, and the criminal element. The point is to stop reacting to particular elements by demonizing their choice to carry, without getting to the real truth about why we don’t feel safe anymore. Why don’t the politicians deal with crime with as much vigor as hot button emotional issues that accomplish nothing.
By the way, now that you have seen the gun totin crowd that you live near, do you feel more in danger by them? Considering most all of them have not,and likely never will commit a crime. And certainly not a crime that would put you, your family, or friends in any danger, I can’t possible how you would.

Kayleigh August 19, 2013 (8:34 pm)

I try to reserve my a-skeerd energy for stuff that is 1. At least somewhat likely to happen to me and 2. Somewhat within my control.
.
Dear neighbors, you’re far more likely to die of heart disease, cancer, or a car accident than you are by someone shooting you while you scarf a cupcake. So why so scared?

flyintheointment August 19, 2013 (9:05 pm)

Cosmetics. Perhaps, the WSB should use the logo on the now routine reports of property theft, or the announcement of the next “car-prowl wave.”

Steph August 19, 2013 (9:21 pm)

If we had strict gun laws there would eventually a lot les deaths due to guns and less bad people with them. How did Japan do it with only11 gun deaths last year? They certainly have gangs there. I am so tired of you gun freaks always saying less guns doesn’t equal less deaths. BALONEY!

Mike August 19, 2013 (9:27 pm)

Kayleigh, true, we are more likely to die from heart disease and cancer. However, this year is the first year in history we are more likely to die from a gun shot wound than in a car accident. Chalk it up to heavier regulations on car safety and more people having a loaded weapon on / near them with little or no regard for gun safety. There’s a reason for regulation, the general public is stupid. I grew up with guns in the house, I shot a 12 gauge at age 5 and had my hunters safety permit at age 10. I could knock down 22 of 25 clay pigeons at age 8. The difference between me (who does not carry a concealed weapon, nor do I have any firearms in my house now) and the rest is that I actually do understand firearm safety. Until people carry their weapon unloaded with the chamber open, I consider it a threat to my life at all times it is on them. I don’t take gun safety lightly. I’m sick and tired of the vigilante types who have no regard for human life, never have been in a life or death situation where using a firearm would ever do them good rather than harm to themselves or those around them. Statistically you are more likely to shoot yourself or loved one than protect anyone with your firearm. You think the criminal is going to wait for you to pull your firearm out from under your shirt, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

West Seattle Taxpayer August 19, 2013 (9:46 pm)

1. I am pro constitutional rights, which by default means pro guns (yes I realize the constitution has been ammended for excellent reasons 27 times…)

2. Steph- Japan does it with Kung-fu, obviously (that is meant as a movie genre joke)

3. I was most disappointed by the lack of unbiased reporting in this article. I am a fan of the blog and consult it daily as a WS resident, however this post seemed overtly biased and incitful.

Dale August 19, 2013 (9:57 pm)

Right on Mike.

Blew Eagle August 19, 2013 (9:58 pm)

Don’t know if any of you out there reading this are familiar with the Blew Eagle which was just north of Bethlehem Steel under the West Seattle freeway one of the great old biker bar haunts of old west seattle. Anyway it was often said of that fine estabishment that they would pat you down at the door and if you didn’t have a gun on you they would give you one!

Mike August 19, 2013 (11:02 pm)

Good statement, Mike. I’m with you.

nolongerusingthestreets August 19, 2013 (11:08 pm)

DTK wins a gold star on their copy of the WSB.

NicMarie August 20, 2013 (12:08 am)

West Seattle Tax Payer, in what way was the piece biased?! It is simply a statement of facts and resources to more information. WSB in no way states an opinion…
Also, without going too far into my personal (anti-gun) opinions, I do find this pretty frivolous. But seriously, if someone is legally carrying concealed, and the happen upon Cupcake Royale, what exactly SHOULD they do with their gun? Leave it outside?! If it is just a political sign for businesses to post, whit seems unnecessarily “official” and divisive.

Binky August 20, 2013 (12:08 am)

I think people are misunderstanding what this is about. It’s not about deterring violence, necessarily (no, people won’t be stopped by a sign). It’s about working to change the idea that it’s okay to carry a gun everywhere. Like with smoking. If you’re over 18, you can smoke, period. But education and anti smoking ads and more places not letting you smoke has led to a drop in smoking, and more people thinking it isn’t something “cool” to do. Even though it is still quite legal to smoke, and no one is trying to pass any laws banning smoking. It’s about trying to change attitudes.

Riley pierce August 20, 2013 (12:11 am)

Situational Awareness, threat assessment, escalation of violence. These are the some of the principals people like myself, who carry a firearm daily, live by. We have to make careful, predetermined decisions of our daily activities everyday. Leaving my firearm in my vehicle is not an option at risk of criminal prosecution. I’m sickened by some of these posts which negatively generalize owners of firearms, especially from such a tolerant community. Labels and stereotypes are not an effective way to communicate and something I would expect this community to uphold. As beautiful West Seattle is, we are no where near Utopia, so personally, I’m not making a statement against businesses that display the “Gun Free Zone” poster, I’m simply stating I can’t legally enter your establishment anymore.

Chris August 20, 2013 (12:15 am)

I’ve lived in West Seattle 4 years now; I’ve never seen someone open carrying, nor noticed anyone concealed carrying–not sure why I should worry about them.

One thing’s for sure: if I had a small business, I wouldn’t want to put up a sign telling a small percentage of my potential customers to take that money they wanted to give me and go buy my competitors’ product instead. In the long run, you’re going to end up losing more money from pissing off gun lovers than you will gain from the other side.

If this comment section is a good indicator, Cupcake royale has lost 20 sales and gained 5. Those 20 will never come back, but the 5 will forget about it and go back to their normal cupcake-eating routine.

Paul August 20, 2013 (12:40 am)

According to the CDC:
“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.” But a much lower estimate of 108,000 also seems fishy, “because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.” Furthermore, “Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies

Rev.P August 20, 2013 (7:36 am)

“Situational Awareness, threat assessment, escalation of violence.”

This.

I try not to put myself or my family in situations that can get out of control rapidly, constant situational awareness.

JVP August 20, 2013 (8:10 am)

If I see someone other than a law officer carrying a gun in public, I will call 911. The police can then determine whether the carrier has the appropriate license. It’s not my job to determine whether you’re a law-abiding citizen or the next Adam Lanza; it is, however, my job to protect my kid, and if there are guns around, he is statistically less safe. So yeah, you have the right to “open carry,” and I have the right to request that law enforcement verify that right.

I encourage others to do the same.

T Rex August 20, 2013 (8:21 am)

First the Dorito’s at hemp fest and now this?

Really? and my new favorite line is…

“It changes the conversation”. No it doesn’t, it lets you know exactly what this business owner stands for.

God, Seattle is the most LIBERAL place in the world.

At least it is one of the most beautiful places to live…

Andy August 20, 2013 (8:32 am)

Binky is right, most of you do seem to be misunderstanding the point. Binky laid it out pretty clearly, because his/her post is a clear, quality description of the process of identifying something you don’t like and then strong-arming other people into not doing it. Which is exactly what this gun free program is.

Let’s forget for a moment that the director of the program used the most impotent phrase in the activist’s lexicon “change the conversation” and focus on a very simple question: If you could have your way, what would be the state of gun ownership in America tomorrow? Remember not bring up criminals or violence, because the statement from the director is clear – there is no intention to address those issues.

JKB August 20, 2013 (8:57 am)

How about no-weapons zones, instead of focusing on guns. Like canes! Don’t let those people fool you that the cane is for walking. Getting hit with a metal cane would really hurt, and businesses shouldn’t let that happen.

Unknown August 20, 2013 (9:01 am)

LAWSUIT!
A business says you can’t bring in a legally owned and carried firearm. As such if anything happens wile you are in that business to you, your filmily or your fiends the store is responsible because they denied you safety by taking your gun rights away. The store will be sued for everything they are worth. Taking on the liability for everyone’s safety is insane. The present mayor of Seattle is apparently not very smart if he bankrupts all the business that do what he suggest. Yakies!

Chris August 20, 2013 (9:14 am)

JVP – good for you! I do the same thing. I don’t want guns around my kids, so I know that calling police officers with guns to the scene makes perfect sense. In fact, I call the cops when I see a gun on TV. Those things are scary!

Mel August 20, 2013 (9:54 am)

Andy@8:32 ,
WORD.

cookieb August 20, 2013 (10:07 am)

If you are a “gun free zone” you lost my business and my families!

MTH August 20, 2013 (10:17 am)

I guess I am done giving my business to Cupcake Royale – and any other anti-gun establishment!!

kam August 20, 2013 (10:41 am)

You cant just make up your own laws can you?

Todd August 20, 2013 (11:10 am)

Carrying a concealed weapon means exactly that…concealed. Very,very rarely will someone “open carry” a pistol – which is legal in Washington State as long as you meet the legal requirements to own a pistol. You do not need any sort of special license to “open carry” – only to carry concealed. So, it is very likely you encounter someone on a daily basis who is carrying a weapon – how can you feel less safe if you don’t know? How many crime reports right here in the WSB involve legally carrying citizens? I’ve read about street assaults lately – one right on Alki during the day…knocked a girl down to take her iPhone and it’s apparently the same guys who pistol-whipped a guy on Delridge. Putting a sign in the window is a political, feel-good move, but are they going to install metal detectors and do pat-downs? No. The fact is, those who already carry concealed will still do so. State law forbids carrying in bars & taverns, schools and state buildings (like the courthouse, etc.) There is no law being broken by carrying into a store, cupcake shop or bank. They can ask you to leave, but I assume only after you’ve made it clear that you have a gun…which every good concealed-carry citizen knows is a no-no, because the only advantage you have is other people, especially the criminal element, NOT knowing…that’s the point.
This is not a “law”, this is a political statement. Remember, the mayor already tried to sign an executive order to make guns illegal in City parks…and our attorney general shot it down because the City cannot upend state law. It was a waste of money and time, so this time it’s photo-ops and a lot of press, but unlikely to actually make any sort of difference.

JVP August 20, 2013 (11:19 am)

@Chris – Laugh, but it’s a simple risk/benefit analysis. I know that cops, for all of their faults, have been through firearm safety classes and can at least, in theory, be held accountable for their actions. How do I know the same about any random yahoo who’s packing?

Hey, you’re acting under the assumption that anybody could be a criminal from whom you need to defend yourself by carrying a weapon, so I may as well do the same, right? So I’m going to call the cops if I see a weapon.

Personally, I can’t imagine being so paranoid about life that you feel obligated to carry a gun when you’re buying cupcakes. What a terrifying world we live in; only the brave souls willing to ‘pack heat’ at the local chain coffeeshops stand between us and a complete breakdown of society. When the traitorous secret Muslims who control the government send in their UN-backed storm-troopers to take away our venti lattes, only the brave men and women who dared to scoff in the face of the stupid liberals and bring their deadly weapons along to Starbucks will protect us and water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants!

Meanwhile, I’m going to go with the weak and cowardly argument that an increase in the number of weapons nearby increases the likelihood that someone will be shot. I know, I know– I’m a stupid liberal who doesn’t care for the 2nd Amendment, and who thinks using small arms for hunting is okay but carrying them around in public is dangerous. Guess I’ll eventually be killed by the drug-crazed criminals or socialist bastards who I won’t be able to shoot because I don’t have a gun. *Sigh.*

G August 20, 2013 (11:46 am)

Way to rile everyone up, McGinn, and set neighbor against neighbor. The end result is that gun owners are going to make more of point of carrying guns, and people who are afraid of guns will be even more afraid.

Yes, I’d say your work here is done.

chris August 20, 2013 (11:53 am)

JVP, I agree that people who carry all the time are paranoid. But similarly, imagining your calling 911 every time you see someone with a gun is just as paranoid. Prepare to be laughed at by cops and eventually ignored.

phil dirt August 20, 2013 (12:00 pm)

I have a WA state concealed pistol license, and I carry a concealed pistol everywhere I go, including the junction. On one occasion, a few years ago, being armed undoubtedly saved me from serious injury or possibly even death. Consequently, I dislike anti- Second Amendment people with a passion, and I consider them a threat to my personal well being. I make it a point to never support them politically or frequent their place of business. As a result I, too, will no longer be supporting Cupcake Royales’ business with my money.

Andy August 20, 2013 (12:10 pm)

FWIW, I don’t see Cupcake Royale on the list at the link.

JoAnne August 20, 2013 (12:45 pm)

For many people who don’t want to solicit “gun-free” businesses, it has nothing to do with gun rights or politics. It’s just a matter of personal safety.
.
I don’t want to go in any place they criminals are made aware that they will meet no resistance if they draw a gun.
.
Meanwhile, I support Dan Satterberg’s efforts to punish juvenile gun offenders instead of letting them roam the streets.
.
I also believe the criminally insane should be locked up indefinitely.
.
These “gun free” zones may disarm law-abiding citizens, but they have NO influence on the criminals and lunatics who are responsible for gun violence.

DukeMalisto August 20, 2013 (12:46 pm)

To answer questions about how often people carry in public and in stores, it is very often. I’ve even had to use mine in self defense once, so my reasons aren’t based on fanatical propaganda.

Concealed carry is pointless when you only have your firearms at home.

To answer the question about armed robberies prevented by people carrying? Why don’t you ask some of the jewelry stores and food places on the same street as RadioShack. I know of a few instances back in the early 2000’s where stores were held up, and someone with a concealed pistol (in two cases, was the same hero and his .38) who stopped the robbery, and in one case put down the robber when they assaulted the shop owner. The hero shop keeper told me how he was shot at once, and he put one in the chest of the robber. Self defense, and not only saved the products but other patrons.

Please remember that statistics are misleading and often misrepresented in every facet of politics. There are more good deeds than bad deeds left unreported in this world (and especially media).

Since this whole political stunt is apparently just an extension to the “no shoes, no shirts, no service” rights that private businesses have, I’ve what I was looking for on the matter. None of these hate mongers businesses will receive my business anymore and I hope it doesn’t come to the extremes for them to learn the error of their ways.

*Drops the mic. steps off soap box*

W.S. Parent August 20, 2013 (1:27 pm)

Gun owners, unless you are being frisked as you walk in, carry concealed as you were and no one will know or care. I say this as a non carrying citizen.
–
I wish we could get more of you talking about the shape of our public school buildings instead of arguing about meaningless sticker on cupcake shop windows. They just shipped more portables to a few of our West Seattle schools today. This means more of our children get to sit in damp and musty outbuildings this school year.
–
Yay!!! Seattle – you are so progressive! /s

S August 20, 2013 (2:01 pm)

I will have to visit this over priced Cupcake place and legally carry my handgun, which I can under the 2nd amendment and see what happens. Which will be nothing.

Todd August 20, 2013 (2:07 pm)

I too, have used a weapon in self-defense and in defense of others. In the ’80’s, in the Rainier Valley, a customer charged my employer with a hatchet in his hand and my co-worker and I each pointed our pistols at him and told him to “stop”. He did. He left and a shot was not fired.
No, I don’t consider myself a fanatic, but I witnessed drive-by shootings and I have been held at gunpoint in High Point in the late ’80’s over $5. Yes, I have taken a level 2 combat training course – which includes countless hours of classroom training – and I would consider myself equipped to handle the responsibility (which is a big one!). I support mandatory training for all applicants for concealed carry (which is not the case in our state) and leaving your gun in your car to go anywhere is a dangerous prospect (car prowl is the most common crime in Seattle). No one is going to agree completely on any issue like this, but I just don’t like painting one group with such a broad brush like “gun-nuts” or “freedom haters”.

Spec Ops August 20, 2013 (2:09 pm)

Nice stunt for November McGinn.

NM August 20, 2013 (2:31 pm)

Wow, calm down kids… Take a breath and have a real conversation. No need to result to name calling & generalizations. Interesting thing is how much more aggressive the anti-gun crowd is at this point. Good score all around and no mention of Nazis yet… Ok aaaannndddd… Go!

“Every time you see that red white and blue sticker with a gold eagle with some guns clutched in its claws on the back of a car, ask yourself do you want to eat a cupcake with that guy in the room?”

” It seems those of us opposed to guns and that frankly hate them, are scared to speak up. Hence I’m not using my name”

“Honestly, I’m as big a supporter of our Bill of Rights as you are (ALL of our rights, not just the 2nd) but when you act like frothing children, you should expect to be treated as such.”

“But I’m cracking up at all the gun-nuts above who are disavowing cupcakes. Too priceless. So cute. Proof once again of the irrationality so endemic to most (but not all) poeple who identify themselves as “pro-gun”.”

“After they get trespassed for open-carrying in a cupcake shop they will immediately hop in their Ford F-150′s, turn on the Dori Monson show and head to the pharmacy to pick up their E.D. medication.”

“So I’m happy to patronize business that are saying we will let the police handle public safety, rather than trying to live in the Wild Wild West (Seattle).”

“Gun haters are delusional.”

“Wow what a sad paranoid little burg W. Seattle is, you’d think it was like Manhattan circa 1977 out there. I feel sorry for all of you that are so afraid of “criminals” all the time.”

” Y’all need to take remedial reading, and chill out. They ain’t prying those guns from your cold, dead hands. Get over yourselves. No cupcakes for you? Oh, boohoohoo..talk about over reacting….geez…”

“I am so tired of you gun freaks always saying less guns doesn’t equal less deaths. BALONEY!”

Insert or delete Mike’s possibly inflammatory statement. Depends on intent, is he calling on all CPL holders / carriers or just the vigilante few? If all = insert. If only referring to actual vigilantes = delete. Moving on…

“God, Seattle is the most LIBERAL place in the world.” Not sure if this is positive or negative.

Wow… “Personally, I can’t imagine being so paranoid about life that you feel obligated to carry a gun when you’re buying cupcakes. What a terrifying world we live in; only the brave souls willing to ‘pack heat’ at the local chain coffeeshops stand between us and a complete breakdown of society. When the traitorous secret Muslims who control the government send in their UN-backed storm-troopers to take away our venti lattes, only the brave men and women who dared to scoff in the face of the stupid liberals and bring their deadly weapons along to Starbucks will protect us and water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants!

Meanwhile, I’m going to go with the weak and cowardly argument that an increase in the number of weapons nearby increases the likelihood that someone will be shot. I know, I know– I’m a stupid liberal who doesn’t care for the 2nd Amendment, and who thinks using small arms for hunting is okay but carrying them around in public is dangerous. Guess I’ll eventually be killed by the drug-crazed criminals or socialist bastards who I won’t be able to shoot because I don’t have a gun. *Sigh.*”

“JVP, I agree that people who carry all the time are paranoid. But similarly, imagining your calling 911 every time you see someone with a gun is just as paranoid. Prepare to be laughed at by cops and eventually ignored.”

“Consequently, I dislike anti- Second Amendment people with a passion, and I consider them a threat to my personal well being. I make it a point to never support them politically or frequent their place of business.”

Ex-Westwood Resident August 20, 2013 (4:39 pm)

-The movie theaters in Aurora, CO were a DECLARED “Gun Free Zone”
-Sandy Hook Elementary School, was a DECLARED “gun Free Zone”
-Virgina Tech is a DECLARED “Gun Free Zone”
-On Ft. Hood (and ANY military installation) it is ILLEGAL to carry a weapon, unless you are on duty in a security detail, essentially making it a “Gun Free Zone”
-Columbine was a DECLARED “Gun Free Zone”
GUN FREE ZONES = KILLING FIELDS

chris August 20, 2013 (4:50 pm)

Ok, so what are the final totals? Let’s add them up!

Anti-gun:

1. Do you want to eat a cupcake with that guy in the room?
2. Frothing children
3. Gun-nuts…so cute…irrationality endemic
4. hop in their Ford F-150′s, turn on the Dori Monson show and head to the pharmacy to pick up their E.D. medication
5. rather than trying to live in the Wild Wild West
6. sad paranoid…I feel sorry for all of you that are so afraid
7. take remedial reading…Get over yourselves… boohooho
8. I am so tired of you gun freaks
9. When the traitorous secret Muslims who control the government send in their UN-backed storm-troopers to take away our venti lattes

Pro-gun:
1. Gun haters are delusional.
2. God, Seattle is the most LIBERAL place in the world
3. Prepare to be laughed at
4. I dislike anti- Second Amendment people with a passion

Stay classy West Seattle!

chris August 20, 2013 (4:51 pm)

Ex-Westwood, yes that might all be true. But did they have the decal???? Think about it!

Eric August 20, 2013 (4:58 pm)

I knew WS wouldn’t dissapoint! Oops, need more popcorn! Carry on.

NM August 20, 2013 (5:25 pm)

GUN FREE ZONES = KILLING FIELDS

Khmer Rouge? Really? Ok… You had me until then.

Ex-Westwood Resident August 20, 2013 (5:37 pm)

NM,
The MOST horrific mass shootings have ALL taken place in so called “Gun Free Zones”
They are killing fields because those that desire to commit these heinous acts KNOW they will not only have the time to kill as many people as they can, but they will face NO resistance or danger from someone carrying a gun.
So, they ARE in fact a “Killing Field” for them.

Seattlite August 20, 2013 (8:20 pm)

Cupcake Royale = High Colesterol Royale. More of you will have clogged arteries from fatty cupcakes than ever being part of a gun fray in the Big Junction for heavens sake. Legal guns are fine. Illegal guns are the enemy.

Gawdger August 20, 2013 (9:30 pm)

WA state law does in fact allow a permit holder to carry a concealed weapon on school grounds while dropping off or picking up a child. The state doesn’t hand out CCW permits like candy. You can’t be a drug addict, convicted of a DV or other felonies, and zero history of mental illness. I would like to see some statistics of CCW permit holders who commit crimes, because this Gun Free Zone is apparently directed at us.

Phil dirt August 20, 2013 (10:46 pm)

Well, it looks like I won’t be drinking any more coffee or eating over priced cupcakes at Cupcake Royale.

ltfd August 20, 2013 (10:51 pm)

My boss’s boss is a fool.

evergreen August 20, 2013 (11:38 pm)

Do these “gun free” signs really work? Really just a feel good move, I imagine.

Ex-Westwood Resident August 21, 2013 (4:45 am)

evergreen,
Sure they work. The criminal will know he/she has free reign in the establishment for a decent amount of time with no worry of a “crazy gun owner” trying to stop them by being in the store/business.

chris August 21, 2013 (7:45 am)

The only thing these signs will bring to business owners is less business, you have effectively pissed off 3-5% of your clientele for life.

Curious August 21, 2013 (9:47 am)

Serious questions: What do gun carriers do at the post office? Do any of you boycott over 21 establishments?

amisella August 21, 2013 (9:54 am)

Waiting for Amazon to put that badge on its website. ;-D

chris August 21, 2013 (10:31 am)

Cupcake royale is going to lose 5 customers, amazon would lose 50,000 ;p

chris August 21, 2013 (10:46 am)

Curious – There is a big difference between a law which forces an establishment to deny you service, and a business volunteering to become part of a program which does.

WSB August 21, 2013 (11:13 am)

For the person upthread who noted that Cupcake Royale was not currently on the list of participating businesses (it was when I wrote this story, when other news orgs wrote theirs, and it was in the original announcement) – since someone also contacted me via e-mail to ask about this, I contacted Washington Ceasefire, and their reply: “Cupcake Royale is a participating business. They were accidentally taken off the list, as we are updating the list as we go. The list should be up to date by the end of the day.” Just in case you wondered. – TR

NM August 21, 2013 (11:17 am)

@EWR,
Understood where you were going with it, just didn’t understand why you felt the need to use a term we associate with the systematic murder of millions of Cambodians. I just felt it was a wee bit extreme as all the rest that Chris and I listed out. Tends to polarize the conversation versus a solution oriented approach. For the record I have a CPL but my approach to discussing it is a respectful conversation around my reasons. In the end if a place of business says they don’t want me to carry there, then so be it, it’s their right to do it. I won’t carry there & add it to the list we are already legally prohibited from visiting while armed. As for anti-gun people go, you would be surprised how many people I have taken to the range, de-mystified it and shown them that shooting sports can be fun, challenging etc… Also they learn that guns just don’t “go off” and you can’t do a backflip and hit your target :). In the end if they still want to be “anti-gun” good for them at least they now know something about it versus just fearing it without understanding it.

JS August 21, 2013 (2:06 pm)

I own a business in West Seattle. What if I put up a sign saying I don’t serve the GLBT community? Or I don’t serve white people. Or black people. Or Asian people. Would the city allow me to do that??? Would I want to do that??? Absolutely not. That’s discriminating. But put up a sign that says you can’t carry your (constitutionally protected) firearm in my business, and since this anti-gun Mayor agrees, that’s OK? Hypocrites. Fakes. Frauds. They say it’s ““generally” within business owners’ rights to set rules that could include banning particular items from their property”. But not if it doesn’t fall into the beliefs of the current administration. Certainly not in Seattle.

C.T. August 21, 2013 (7:20 pm)

“Gun free zones” are also known as “hunting reserves” as demonstrated by the many mass killings in “gun free zones”.

phil dirt August 22, 2013 (8:09 am)

I was going to sit out the coming mayoral election because I’ve grown tired of voting for the lesser of two evils. However, Magoo’s position on guns has caused me to reevaluate my decision.

Cupcake August 23, 2013 (11:43 am)

Oh, and Peter, you say people with guns have stopped crimes – ZERO times—Google home owners shooting burglars? People like you condemn such homeowners so often surely you know its more than ZERO. How about the girl shooting the rapist as he broke into her home while she was caring for younger siblings? You condemn her I am sure but ZERO…really? billions/not zero!

AndrewsDad August 23, 2013 (2:38 pm)

Still no sign in the window of Cupcake Royal in West Seattle letting criminals know it is safe to work there.

What I found the most odd about this story is at the press conference, the guy from Cease Fire WA used Sandy Hook, Columbine and Virginia Tech, all gun free zones, as examples of what they are trying to avoid. So the logic here is in order to stop tragedies that happened in gun free zones, we need to create more gun free zones.

Owen August 23, 2013 (10:41 pm)

I will happily patronize shops with a gun free zone sticker.
I feel strongly that the second amendment is a relic and has no place in modern society. Repeal the second amendment.

Drew August 24, 2013 (11:03 am)

For everyone who thinks that the “pro-gun” side imagines people using firearms in self defense, the CDC found and released a report stating that there are at least as many defensive uses of firearms as criminal uses. The high side of their estimates have it at 10 times as many self defense uses per year as there are criminal uses.

Irrevelent August 31, 2013 (1:02 am)

Owen, if you can hold that opinion then life has been good to you. For many of us others, life has shown its ugly side and we had to, or realize that we may need to protect ourselves someday. May luck keep smiling on you so you never need one.

DrB August 31, 2013 (12:46 pm)

Peter wrote, “Jim and Dave, please provide specific examples of armed robberies in Seattle that have been prevented by customers with guns.”

OK! I spent about 60 seconds on the Google Machine and got this one for you.

Police responding to a burglary call at a jewelry store in Seattle, Wash., arrived on the scene to find R.W. Bartlett holding the thwarted would-be thief at gun-point. Bartlett, who holds a permit to carry a pistol, had been passing by when he saw a man break a window in the door of the jewelry shop.

How about this one:

Donald Murker tried to talk to a gunman who had fired a volley of bullets into a Seattle, Wash., restaurant, wounding a waitress. When that proved unsuccessful, the former security guard went to his car to retrieve his licensed .357, but was shot by the gunman as he opened the door. Though wounded, Murker pulled the revolver and pointed it at the gunman, who froze. Murker than disarmed the man and held him until police arrived.

Usually these thwarted robberies are accomplished by the store clerks or owners, since they are in the location for much longer time periods…